Author Laura Belgray of “Tough Titties” on Late-Bloomers, Loser Superpowers and Why Midlife is the Time to Be Flawsome
Show Snapshot:
Award-winning TV writer and author Laura Belgray walks us through her debut book, “Tough Titties: On Living Your Best Life When You’re the F-ing Worst”—a hilarious permission slip for living life on your own terms. We cover the joys of being a late-bloomer versus peaking in high school, non-linear careers, loser superpowers, and why midlife is the right time to embrace being “flawsome.” GenX bonus! We talk MTV, Moon Unit Zappa, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and sneaking into bars underage. Plus, is ChatGPT a copywriting killer app? Tune in to find out!
Show Links:
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Laura’s Book: Tough Titties: On Living Your Best Life When You’re the F*ing Worst
Quotable:
The title came to me because of something that I say all the time—well, tough titties. And it's usually in response to something that somebody wants me to do or wants me to be. And I'm like, “Oh, yeah they want me to do that? Mmm, tough titties”…It is the original ultimate sorry-not-sorry for not being a very “supposed to” person.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. If you've been tuning in to A Certain Age for a while, you know my day job is helping executives and business owners create strong LinkedIn profiles. I also teach classes on LinkedIn and job hunting. When I teach I share examples of strong, door-opening LinkedIn headlines. Ad executive Cindy Gallup has the most eye-catching headline on LinkedIn. Her headline reads, 'I like to blow shit up. I am the Michael Bay of business.' Boom, talk about a scroll-stopper. But not exactly a headline to get you hired. The second best headline on LinkedIn might be by award-winning copywriter, Laura Belgray. Her headline reads, 'I write the only newsletter anyone opens anymore.' As somebody who writes a newsletter every Thursday, this is exactly the type of headline that would have me throwing gobs of cash at Laura. That is, if I could afford her. Or, if she were still writing ad copy. Laura hung up her copywriter-for-hire-hat after years of writing everything from TV promos for Bravo, Nickelodeon, HBO, to ad copy for woo-woo Internet life coaches. Her words, not mine. Now, she is an online entrepreneur selling courses that have helped thousands of business owners find the words and take the actions that get them paid to be 100% themselves. She began her copy career as a contributor to that Gen X Bible, "The Preppy Handbook." She joins me today to talk about her own debut book, "Tough Titties: On Living Your Best Life When You're the F*ing Worst." So heads up you late-bloomers, wanna-be-writers, career switchers, accidental entrepreneurs, or simply people who love hilarious stories well-told, stick around because this show is for you. Welcome, Laura.
Laura Belgray 1:49
Hey, thank you so much. That was the best and absolutely most unique intro that I've, yeah, I love it.
Katie Fogarty 1:58
Oh my god, when the words "LinkedIn" came out of my mouth, you were probably like--"Am I on the right podcast? What's happening?"
Laura Belgray 2:05
Is this an ad for your, oh, I mean sort of, but -
Katie Fogarty 2:09
Oh my gosh.
Laura Belgray 2:10
- which it should be, which it should be. I also, I'm into the fact that maybe it, maybe it's that I'm susceptible to negging, but that I'm second best. It kind of gave me a little thrill.
Katie Fogarty 2:25
Listen, that's so funny. Well, I can help you be first. You know, I do have a business in this. But I am really excited to have this conversation with you. Because I am one of the people that keeps opening up your emails, you are not wrong. And I've been opening them since I think like 2017, right. I'm an OG fan. And one of the things that I've learned from reading a bazillion of your emails is that nobody tells a story quite like you. So I do want to kick this over to you. I'd love you to introduce yourself to A Certain Age listeners and kind of give us a quick career snapshot and tell us why you're here.
Laura Belgray 2:58
Oh gosh, a quick career snapshot? I mean, you -
Katie Fogarty 3:01
You just wrote a 370 page book about it, so it might be a little tricky to trim it.
Laura Belgray 3:06
I did. And it is the hardest thing for me to do, is give a quick snapshot, because as you just mentioned, it dates back, my career dates back to working for Lisa Bernbach, who was the writer of The Preppy Handbook, that Gen X Bible. And that was my first job out of college, other than being a bartender and being fired from being a bartender, which I spent the first year doing. So I worked for her as a fact checker and that led me to Spy magazine, where she was able to get me an internship that I would never have been able to get myself without that connection. Because I had no qualifications or anything like that. And the from there, at Spy I was, I proved myself. It was like New York's coolest magazine. And I proved myself as the world's worst intern, I was just terrible at my job. I was, I wasn't even on time and I had to, like one of my big jobs was to put together these gossip packs. Like xeroxing the, all the gossip pages of the different newspapers or gossip adjacent pages, and stapling them together and collating them, putting them on editor's desks. And that I managed to do okay, although not first thing in the morning. The other thing we were expected to do as interns was pitch ideas. And they wanted us to grow into associate editors and then editors. And I came up with nothing. Throughout my six months there, zilch, zero. And the editor, a managing editor, took me to lunch and had to tell me, you know, you can take initiative here, and I was like, Oh, no. When you're told that you can take initiatives, kind of, it shows that you have the opposite of initiative.
Katie Fogarty 4:55
It's like, you're screwing up. You're on thin ice, you're on thin ice.
Laura Belgray 5:00
Thin ice, yes. Thin ice, it is the literal opposite of initiative. And I got lucky because the ad, the ad side and the editorial side were all on one floor and I spent most of my internship doing schmooze laps around the floor and just chatting to everybody. And so I got hired on the ad side. They were like, well, we'll take her. And that's where I wrote my first piece of copy. I didn't know what kind of writing I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to be some sort of writer or do something entertainment-y, but I didn't have a screenplay idea in me, I didn't have a novel in me. I didn't want to spend my days all lonely and you know, weeping over a typewriter, which was what we would've used then and crumpling up drafts and filling a wastebasket. And so I discovered there, they assigned me an advertorial, which, for your listeners, is that page in the magazine that looks like it's part of the magazine, but it's not really. And it was for Dewars scotch, and they assigned me, ironically, this whole page, it contained, this the ironic part, an essay on adulthood. Which, I was still living in my parents bedroom, but I managed to write that. And sorry, my parents home, it was my childhood bedroom. It wasn't that bad, that I was living, like sleeping at the foot of their bed. But anyway. And a quiz that was, the quiz was called Do you party like your Uncle Marty? And the quiz was to determine whether you were cool or an old fart loser. And if you were an old fart loser, if you were an old fart loser, then the remedy was to drink Dewars, of course.
Katie Fogarty 6:46
I love it.
Laura Belgray 6:46
And so yeah, and it was really fun for me to write. And then I had a whole page, finally, in the magazine. I was like, oh, I really like writing short, fun things. And that's called copywriting. And so I managed to carve out a copywriting career. The next place I went was another magazine that was way less fun, and more buttoned up and corporate and I lasted there a full six months before getting fired. And that was the only nine-to-five I've ever had, those six months at that next magazine. And then I got into TV promos by the great luck of knowing someone from Spy who told me he was writing promos. We went to lunch and he told me about his new job writing promos for VH1 and I said, what are promos? And he said, well, I just I watch a lot of TV and I write these, those short little things during the commercials that are for the network's shows that tell you to tune in. And I was like, Oh my God, that's a job? I have to get that job. I always wanted to get paid to watch TV. That was my dream. And so this was some version of that. And he hooked me up with the editorial director, who was Lauren Zalaznick who later would go on to create "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" and she was kind of the founder of what Bravo is now. But anyway, she assigned me a promo, it was like, it was the 90s, I feel like you could do this at that time, like going cold with nothing really to show and get hired. And she, so she assigned me a promo and I wrote my first promo and then I went on to write a whole bunch more for them and write scripts for their countdown shows, like their top 20 countdowns and top 10 countdowns. Some of them hosted by Moon Unit Zappa, some real Gen X name dropping here.
Katie Fogarty 8:39
We love it.
Laura Belgray 8:40
Yeah, Moon Unit was the originator of the valley girl voice on the song Valley Girl by Frank Zappa. So I did, I and then I segwayed into Nick at Night, Nickelodeon and Nick at Night writing promos there and that was like the place, the holy grail of promos for me. And I stayed in promos for years and years and years, at least 15, maybe 20 ish, overlapping with the online space in when I was around 40, I segwayed into writing for private clients in the online world. This, this weird kind of nebulous online space that I just called the space, online entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, massage-preneurs, doggy-preneurs, anything that you can affix -preneur to.
Katie Fogarty 9:29
Mom-preneurs, right?
Laura Belgray 9:29
Mom-preneurs, oh so many.
Katie Fogarty 9:31
I was a mom-preneur a gazillion years ago.
Laura Belgray 9:34
Yeah, mmhm, there you go.
Katie Fogarty 9:34
Now I'm a solopreneur. I still have -preneur attached to everything I'm doing. I guess I'm a podcaster, not a podcastpreneur. But you know.
Laura Belgray 9:41
Yeah, you might be a podcastpreneur.
Katie Fogarty 9:42
Maybe, maybe. I'm working up to that, I'm working up to that, Laura. Right now I'm just a podcaster hanging out with a mic and having fun.
Laura Belgray 9:52
You can get, if you monetize and scale it, you'll be a podcastpreneur. So, so yeah, and that was by way of my friend Marie Forleo, who is one of the biggest names in the online motivational women's empowerment and course creator space. Back then when I met her, she was a life coach and bartender, and we were in the same hip hop dance class at Crunch. And she eventually pulled me into this world and I'm so grateful that she did. She asked me to give a talk at her first real in person event, which was called Rich, Happy and Hot Live. And it was in the Soho House library to 50 people. So I gave a talk on non-sucky copy. And people started coming up to me after and asking me, like saying, I'm a realtor, can you help me with my website copy, I'm a this, I'm a coach, I need help writing, you know, writing my about page. And I just started saying yes to them, sure, I'll take new clients. And I had, it was a totally different kind of copy than I had done before, but I knew that I could write in a conversational human way, which most people are unable to do, because it's been drilled out of them by school and by, if they've worked in corporate, especially, or legal. They've been taught to write in a buttoned up stiff, robotic way. So I knew I could do a better job than they could and took on those clients. And that bloomed into a strictly online business over time.
Katie Fogarty 11:32
I love it. And I've been following you since the Marie Forleo days, honestly, because that's, I signed up for B-School and because I get enthusiastic about things and I pay for them and I get halfway through, I didn't make it all the way through B-School, I'm a B-School dropout, but I, one of the things that I've stuck with ever since is opening your emails and following your copywriting advice because my career has been, you know, sort of copywriting-adjacent my whole life. And so I love what you're up to. We're heading into break, but when we come back, I want to hear about your segue into writing a book.
Laura Belgray 12:01
Great.
Katie Fogarty 12:03
Okay, Laura, we're back. I, we went into the break and I just confessed that I dropped out of B-School and, but I'm committed, I'm a committed student of your writing. I'm a committed student of your emails. And when I learned from your email, which is why it's so important to have an email list, that you were writing a book, I like raised my digital hand and I like DMed you and sort of cyber-stalked you on Instagram and said, please put me on your media list because I would love to hear about it when it's live. And the book is, you know, it's out. It's about to be on shelves, people can preorder it right now. And I absolutely love this book, "Tough Titties." It's a phenomenal read from start to finish. Part of the reason why I loved it so much is I was also a New York City kid who grew up in the 70s, 80s, 90, right? I connected with everything. I had that Chocolate Soup bag, I lived through the the Upper East Side girls scene, you know, I also snuck into like Palladium, Limelight, the Pyramid Club, and I've had multiple plates of french fries at Lucky Strike. So this, this book is not just a love letter to good writing and to amazing copy and hilarious stories. It's also a love letter, I think, to a vanishing New York, and I would love to hear about what made you write it.
Laura Belgray 13:11
Oh my gosh, I'm smiling so hard right now. Because it's, it is rare that I get to talk to somebody who read it from that lens. Like, who is also a New Yorker and grew up in the same era and gets all that. Most of my readers, and I love this too, are like, Oh, you, you know, you make me feel as if I were there, as if I grew up there. And I get to see it all, in Studio, and all those things. But this is really fun. I didn't know you had a Chocolate Soup bag.
Katie Fogarty 13:37
By the way, I never made it to Studio. I was like, I was having, I was having like FOMO from the 80s. I'm like, listen, I was like lucky to make it into Palladium. They used to make me walk in with my friend Christina because I looked like 12 and she looked 22. And they were like, Christina is assigned to walk in with Katie because otherwise we're all getting kicked out. So I never made it to Studio. That's a great chapter in the book, I felt like I was there.
Laura Belgray 14:01
Thank you. You're so much cooler than I am that you went to multiple clubs and actually got in. That was the only time I ever got in and then I was quickly dragged out. So, so what made me write the book? I mean, it is a book of stories that I've always wanted to tell. And, you know, the thing is, I'm not a big famous person so you don't get to just write a book of stories you always like to tell. And you know, if you're not Rob Lowe, who gets to write stories I only tell my friends, or any other celebrity. I didn't have permission to do that. What I had permission to do, really, what I was, the book I was supposed to write was a copywriting book or a marketing book or something to do with business or, or self help or personal development. Some kind of how to, with like bullet points at the end of each chapter, what you just learned, your next steps, and I refuse to do that. I'm like, I would rather eat a bag of hair. And this, this is the book I always wanted to write. So the trick of it was giving it a theme, like making some sense of why am I telling all these stories and inserting some wisdom, some takeaways, in a subtle way. I'm not going to spoon feed them, like one of those books. But I, as for like naming it and deciding what the book was, because it took forever to do that, I was writing it for so many years before I finally figured out what was it. And, and by the way, the working title of it for a while was New Dork City.
Katie Fogarty 15:38
Okay.
Laura Belgray 15:38
I still didn't know what it was gonna be but it was like a, you know, misfit dork in New York. And a subtitle that I had once I came up with Tough Titties was, confessions of a late bloomer. But that felt a little soft, and a little, like, flowery and didn't love that. But the title came to me, because of something that I say all the time, I found myself saying, well, tough titties. And it's usually in response to something that somebody wants me to do, or wants me to be. And I'm like, oh, yeah, they want me to do that? Mmm, tough titties. And I felt like, okay, that kind of sums me up. It is the original ultimate sorry not sorry for not being a very supposed to person, in my view. And so it worked on that level, but also on the level of being, basically, 12 for life. And, and I felt like it had notes of that, you know, New York 1980s, like terrycloth halter top sidewalks infused with urine.
Totally.
And, yeah.
Katie Fogarty 16:45
I think if you're, even if the listeners are thinking like, oh, I didn't grow up with sidewalks infused with urine, you did grew up in terrycloth, so like just do not pretend otherwise. We have seen your gym shorts from your 1980s pictures, so.
Laura Belgray 16:57
Exactly.
Katie Fogarty 16:58
And I feel like it has that whole, that whole vibe of, I mean, I remember that like people saying that, tough titties. It was just such a fun book to read. I loved every page of it, as I said. You know, but writing a book is no easy thing. I know that because I've been trying to write one for a couple years.
Laura Belgray 17:15
No, uh huh.
Katie Fogarty 17:16
And the hardest part is sitting down and doing it. So I'm just curious, like, what was the hardest chapter for you to write? Was there one that was easy that just poured out of you? Share a little, what's a little bit of a backstory?
Laura Belgray 17:28
Yeah, I would say, the hardest one? The easiest and hardest one for me to write was this chapter called Star Fuckers. Because the story itself, so that's the story of me and my two friends who were like, my going out friends, my party, I mean, they were my best friends at the time. Truly, like my 1990s going out friends, one of whom plucked my eyebrows into little like razor thin, like pencil lines. And I thought, hey, it was the look. And the three of us met a world renowned cinematographer, not cinematographer, filmmaker, auteur, who I call in the book, I call him Marty Scorsese, but he was not Marty Scorsese. He was one on that level. And it was, and so we just ended up in like, a little bit of a mess with him because he wanted foursome, and we didn't feel like giving him one. And he was gross. But that, so that story really poured out of me. It was a story that I dined off of for years, like I came back from a trip where we had met him and talked about it, and everybody loved the story. And then I told the follow up story and everyone loved that story. And it was very easy to write. But then the hard thing was finding the why to that story. Like why am I telling this? Why how does it fit into this book of late bloomer stories, of trying to fit in, of, you know, those of not being the person that I'm expected to be, like going, taking the windy path to success? Like those are the main themes of the book, and how does this story fit it? And that was, that was a struggle with several of the stories. Like, I want to tell this but I have to find out why. I have to figure out why I'm telling it and weave that into the story so that the reader feels satisfied by it and doesn't just end up being like okay, that's funny, but why are you telling me.
And so what was, what did you learn about yourself with this sort of star fucker story when you were peeling back the the layers to figure out why you've been telling it all these years?
Yeah, I realized there's something to this like, why, why do we put such a premium on celebrities? Why do we think they are so important? Why would we, why, I mean, it's called Star Fuckers, like, why do we want that attention from a celebrity? What are we looking for? And I've realized that, you know, the two of my like, my two friends, it was obvious. One of them was in film school and so she was obsessed with this filmmaker. And the other was going, was auditioning for acting roles at the time, she just started to be an actress. And so who knew, like maybe he would cast her in one of his movies. As for me, it's like, there was nothing concrete that he could give to me but I was like, I want him to see me as special. And tell me why I'm special. And tell me what to do with my life. See, that's what I wanted from everyone, basically, but especially him. It's like, see, I want you to see my talent, and tell me how to use it. Because that was my big struggle at the time, like trying to figure out what career, what kind of job was going to harness, tap my talent, make me feel like I was doing work that didn't feel like work and where everyone, where my brilliance just shined through, and everybody would recognize it, and I could maybe be a wunderkind. And so that, I was hoping, like, we were hanging out with him and I was just hoping he would turn to me and say, you know, what you should do with your life. And then I would just be there to take notes.
Katie Fogarty 21:24
There's so much, you know, like there's so much premium placed on this, like this notion of the wunderkind. Like the, you know, like 40 under 40 list and the sense like you've gotta get it all figured out so early and, you know, I, you share in the book over and over again that you're a card carrying late bloomer. You know, when I look at what you share in this book, also though, you were on Sesame Street when you were 2, you know, you're writing promos for some really big brands, you've done super cool things, yes like the star fucker incident, maybe like, you know, wasn't quite your bag, but you like taught Sherman Helmsley, the George Jefferson of TV, to moonwalk, you know. So most people would think like, that stuff's really cool and fun. You know, I get your career wasn't linear. I understand the monetary success came later. But I'm wondering, and I asked myself the same question, like does growing up in New York City, play any role in feeling dissatisfied, because this is a hustle, hustle city where everyone's kind of A list or blue chip, big successes, you know, the top of the heap, you know, if you can make it here you can make it anywhere. Do you think being a New Yorker contributed to your feeling that you hadn't gotten your act together fast enough?
Laura Belgray 22:33
That could be. Because this was a time, you know, my 20s and 30s, were a time before social media, before I could really compare myself to everybody in the world. Which is now the fun thing that I get to do. Like, feel behind all kinds of people from all over the place that I don't know. So it could be, it could have to do with being in New York, where people have incredible opportunities, and if they have any hustles, they take advantage of them and really cash in on them. And I always felt like I semi did that. Like I was handed great opportunities but I never felt like I maximize them because I wasn't built to maximize them. Like, starting with that internship. I felt like I was running out the clock on it like oh, shoot, I still don't, like -
Katie Fogarty 23:22
I'm still not on time. I still haven't gotten here at nine. Shit, when's that gonna happen?
Laura Belgray 23:28
Exactly. Right, like tomorrow, I think I've always had this feeling, this wish, like tomorrow I'm gonna wake up and be a different me. And, and be an on time person and be somebody who goes for it and, and does all the work and throws everything they can at their success. And I've never really felt like, except in moments, little isolated moments, I've never really felt like I was that person. And when I first started writing promos, and I felt like okay, I'm doing my dream job now. That's, that's one of those moments where I felt obsessed with my work the way I wanted to. And like I was working so hard that people would say, Hey, do you ever take a break? I was like, Are you talking to me? Because that's not me. I was the, I was the break taker generally. But I do feel like it's been hard for me to channel that, overall. I have moments of it, but I've, I'm not built as someone who is all in and takes it to the max. And it's one reason I've never been able to, for instance rise up the corporate ladder. I could not climb, you know I lasted on that first rung of the corporate ladder for all of six months and then was like bye bye. You know, you can kick me off now. Because I don't anticipate the boss's needs. I don't hustle. I don't, you know, I don't get there early, if even on time.
Katie Fogarty 24:58
I was just I was just gonna say that.
Laura Belgray 24:59
Yeah, what were you going to say?
Katie Fogarty 25:00
You know, what you're saying right now, you know, you see in the book, when you read it, there's sort of an evolution, I think, a little bit of an evolution in the way you see yourself. Like you were just sharing earlier about how you never saw yourself as somebody who was climbing that ladder or who could, even.
Laura Belgray 25:14
Yeah.
Katie Fogarty 25:14
And you were waiting for Martin Scorsese to see your talent, but I, you know, in the book, you start to see your own talent, and you start to see that you are doing things exactly the way you want to do them. And succeeding was sort of a new definition of success. And one of the things that jumped out to me in the book was that both of your own parents made really big midlife career pivots. And that -
Laura Belgray 25:40
Yeah.
Katie Fogarty 25:40
- you know, I imagine informed, you know, your own realization that it's totally possible to switch lanes and you don't have to get it figured out right, you know, right from the jump, right out of college.
Laura Belgray 25:54
Yes, exactly. I mean, they, so my father, when I was pretty little, I'd say around four, he switched careers. He had been an industrial engineer for the airlines, for American Airlines, Eastern Airlines, which meant he mostly, I'm not sure exactly what he did, part of it was tallying liquor bottles. And, but he, he got, he got great perks, and so did we, you know, free travel, sometimes upgrades to first class. I was not old enough to appreciate that. But then, you know, when I was little, he switched to being a psychoanalyst. And spent, by the way, so he was in his 40s by that time when he decided to make the switch, and then he spent 10 more years earning his PhD. I don't know how it took that long but I am from late bloomer stock, let's just say, and slowpoke stock. So he took a long time to write his thesis, etc, and finally, and became an analyst and, you know, I would have loved to have kept the travel perks, and instead of being probed all the way up my butthole for feelings constantly, but I, what I did see in him was that relaxed timeline, like okay, you can switch. You can find your life's work in your 40s or later because it was his life's work. He loved it so much that he always said he wanted to do it till his dying day, he never wanted to retire. And he basically didn't. He still had one client who visited him when he was in an assisted living place for a while, like came for appointments. And, and then my mom, partly inspired by him I think, and pushed by him, nudged by him, she was she was in the recording industry, and had a doctorate in musicology. So she had a PhD before he did. And she wanted to figure out her next step after having kids and her next chapter, and my dad urged her to like read What Color is Your Parachute? And take a course, and this, this course in finding your thing led to an internship, and she had discovered that she loved children's books. And she got an internship at, in children's book publishing at a publishing house, and she was in her 40s, I think her late 40s. So can you imagine like taking a job as an intern in your late 40s, especially back then.
Katie Fogarty 28:24
It wasn't considered to be this like, sexy, kind of like reinvention, I'm gonna do a TED Talk about being a 40 year old intern mojo.
Laura Belgray 28:34
Right, right. There was no way to monetize that step and turn it into a TED Talk. Exactly. And so yeah, she, I mean, it's a pretty humbling thing. She was getting people's coffee and making Xeroxes, etc, but eventually became a children's book editor and has, and loves that work and loves children's books and is still involved in it to this day. In fact, she's involved with the Bank Street Children's Book Committee. And, so I was encouraged by both of them that they had this relaxed timeline. And that was sort of the standard that I set for myself.
Katie Fogarty 29:09
It was not even that their timeline was relaxed. I have this so, I have three kids, Laura, they're 22, 20 and 16. And I'm like a recovering control freak. You know, I, you know, I learned like in the first decade, I'm like, I'm not in charge. Like I can help try to like guide the ship. But like the ships like it's got his own engine, you know, the kids are doing their own thing. But, you know, it's still hard to kind of not want to help or push or guide and your parents really were so relaxed about all the choices that you were making in your life. You know, you talk about, you know, good romantic choices, bad romantic choices, you're very honest. Your parents met somebody that you were having an affair with, who was married, he was your former dance instructor. They seem like super zen, and I was like, I wish Laura's dad was still alive to help me figure it out. Because, you know, they're very, like I was I was really amazed by how relaxed they were during this, what you're calling this sort of like late bloomer. Do you, did you experience that? Or was I just reading into that?
Laura Belgray 30:13
Well, they allowed it. But, for one thing, that, like the year I spent, the year slash years I spent loafing around the house, in my childhood bedroom and not doing anything and not finding work, they, they were tolerant because they liked having me there. But they would constantly come into my room saying, like, how's the job search going? You know, any progress today? And I suppose less relaxed parents might have said, might have put down an ultimatum, like, you've got to find work, or you're out of here, or you have to start contributing to the rent, which they didn't. And then when it came to the dancer, or the married salsa instructor, they, I wouldn't say they were relaxed. I think they were gritting their teeth through it. And, and trying not to be judgy. And I mean, my mom would, her voice would get very high whenever she talked about Adam. She would say, so I guess he's separated?
Katie Fogarty 31:15
Question mark, question mark?
Laura Belgray 31:19
Question mark, question mark, or yeah. I hope, are you happy? So no, she was not relaxed about it. She was just really trying not to, I think they both understood that to push me wouldn't get them anywhere.
Katie Fogarty 31:37
Well they seem like amazing people. And they're, your family, like your love for them shines off the pages. It was really, it was so it was so fun to read this book. You know, one of the things that I actually flagged, I wrote it down, because it really it jumped out at me, you said, specifically talking about this sort of notion of late bloomer, the relaxed pace, the kind of the slowpoke notion that you refer to you say, quote, 'My sloth, like pace has advantages. For one thing, I don't have to look back in my 20s, 30s, or early 40s and think that was the best I'll ever be. The plumpest my collagen will ever be? You bet. But my writing and career and life, still improving. I get to enjoy moving toward my peak, I hope I never hit it.' Do you still have this attitude? Did aging play any role in getting you there? Or you know, what, what role if any, did midlife play in feeling really comfortable that you're running your own race at your own pace?
Laura Belgray 32:36
Yeah, listen, I do still feel behind all the time. I mean I think that's thanks to social media and the industry that I'm in are surrounded by which are these online entrepreneurs who talk about scaling and are able to go from 1 million to 5 million to 10 million within a couple of years. And I'm just not that person. But I do think finding my groove, I don't know if it's because of aging, because of getting older and more mature, or it just took me that long. That's how long it took. It took how long it took for me to get there. And I do think that that's a benefit, not having to look back and say, Oh, well, I really, I really had my mojo back then. Like I was, I peaked. I don't want to ever say like, that was the year I peaked and be like talking about my successes from when I was 30. Like, you know, the uncle who comes over and is talking about that goal, the touchdown in college.
Katie Fogarty 33:36
Or you peak in high school. My daughter's always saying like, you don't want to ever hang out people who peaked in high school.
Laura Belgray 33:36
Right, nope.
Katie Fogarty 33:42
Which you know, and we could say that for any phase of life and you know, yeah, we want to be perennially curious and growth minded and doing new things. And like, how boring if it's like all behind us. That's something that your book also really focuses on too. I'd love to switch gears for a minute if we can and talk about your copywriting. 'Cause I've been talking about what an incredible writer you are, you've made a career, you know, writing for big brands like entertainment brands. You've made a career helping other people market themselves and their businesses. You no longer really copy-write; you teach classes or sell programs that allow people, you know, to like learn how to fish for themselves, right? And one of the things that, like really the hallmark to me it seems of your work is that it's you know, just really conversational, talking in one's own voice voice, I don't want to use the word authentic because authentic is probably like the most overused word on the internet. You call it more like being flawesome, you know, like how to like embrace your flaws.
Laura Belgray 34:40
Yeah.
Katie Fogarty 34:41
We don't have superpowers, we have so-so powers or loser powers, we can be flawesome. If somebody's listening to this thinking, you know, I want to share my writing, I want to talk about my work, how would you help somebody to become flawesome?
Laura Belgray 34:59
I would say, share the things that you don't want people to see in you, maybe. I don't, I don't mind people seeing, I don't mind baring it all.
Katie Fogarty 35:09
The chapter, "Blow Jobs I Gave in the 90s," comes to mind.
Laura Belgray 35:15
Yeah, exactly.
Katie Fogarty 35:18
I'm going to say, that chapter wasn't flawesome, it was awesome. But okay, go back to being flawesome.
Laura Belgray 35:23
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so I love revealing things about myself that I'm insecure about, that I don't like about myself. And maybe it's some sort of strange proclivity of mine, that I enjoy doing that. I think it's rare to enjoy that and people are afraid of it. Like, I don't want people to see this about me, I don't want to be judged for this flaw, you know. Whether it's, or I don't want to look like I'm unprofessional. I mean, I think that if you are in perhaps in corporate or somebody who, or say you're a freelancer, who depends on clients, and they depend on you getting things in on time, you probably don't want to broadcast that you're terrible with deadlines and late with everything. That's probably not something, a flaw, that you want to bare out there. But if you are in a position of sharing yourself, and it's not going to compromise your, it's not going to compromise you professionally, I say go for it and share those things. It doesn't mean that you have to beat up on yourself all day. But I think that's the most interesting stuff. I kind of hate the word cheese. I kinda hate the word juicy but it is the juciest stuff.
Katie Fogarty 36:36
I love juicy, I'm just gonna jump right in. I use juicy all the time. I saw your post about juicy and I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm a lover of the word juicy. But you know, but I get it, like you, and by the way, I'm admitting that right now because that's how, you know, you connect with people. It's like, you can't, no one wants to hang out with a shiny Instagram filter that's just pretending certain things. You have to just, you know, I don't know, accept who you are, and be okay with that. And I think getting to midlife, I think that makes it a lot easier. And that's been sort of a theme of this show.
Laura Belgray 37:07
Yeah, I agree with you. Let's embrace juicy.
Katie Fogarty 37:12
Team juicy!
Laura Belgray 37:12
Team juicy. And when it comes to writing about that stuff, about that stuff, and the craft of it, of making it good writing. To me, the secret is all in the details, the concrete details that you use. Painting a picture, rather than using vague squishy language like, you know, I was in a dark place loathing myself and where my self esteem was at an all time low. Like, what does that look like? If you're, if you're talking about a moment like that? What does low place mean? It's way more effective to say, I sat on the floor for three days like Demi Moore in St. Elmo's Fire, but, stalking my ex on Facebook and eating Doritos from the bag and wearing dirty unwashed sweats. Like just painting a picture, showing the details that we can see. That's what makes the writing gritty, makes it sticky, makes you, makes your eyes actually fix on it rather than sliding right over it.
Katie Fogarty 38:21
Absolutely. This is my last question for you because we're nearing the end of our time together. But, your writing does that. It brings, it's vivid, it's story focused, you know, where do you land on ChatGPT? Cause I know that everyone's wondering if ChatGPT is going to kill copywriting, it's, is it the killer app. I saw your recent social media posts, you had a very funny experience. When you were on a podcast recently, where they use ChatGPT to try to create an introduction of you, using your own voice. You know, is this the killer app? Does it really work? Is it ever gonna replace real humans? What's your take?
Laura Belgray 38:59
I cannot imagine a world where it evolves to that place. Because so far all I've seen is a fail. In that sense of it, trying to capture someone's voice, sound like them, do anything funny, like anything remotely funny. Anytime you ask, like, ask it to write something funny, it will talk about comedy. It will say, this is gonna you know, have you laughing your head off.
Katie Fogarty 39:24
Have you in stitches!
Laura Belgray 39:27
Right, you'll be, right, you'll be, you'll be in stitches. This is better than a stand up comedy routine. It could fill the arena. I mean, that's how it does funny, by talking about comedy. And it cannot I mean, I gave it all the resources I could to make it come up with something in my voice and there it came up with word juicy, which I don't say.
Katie Fogarty 39:49
Oh my God, it was using my language. That's so funny. Well, I, you know, it's so interesting.
Laura Belgray 39:55
Exactly, it's channeling you.
Katie Fogarty 39:56
So we can't use it to do, to be funny, maybe to create connection. But we can use it to do our homework, I guess. So that's what people should be using it for. For homework.
Laura Belgray 40:06
Yes. If you're allowed, yeah, if you don't get caught. I know that, I know they're now like, looking for that, they've got AI detectors, I think. But absolutely for structure, sure, go ahead and use it. But someone said, hey, you know, I was struggling to write a press release for Tough Titties. And they were like, let me, I will whip one out for you using ChatGPT, I'll show how good it is. And it started, 'ladies and gentlemen, presenting the book of the year.'
Katie Fogarty 40:36
Oh my god. Alright, okay, so it's not, we don't have to fire ourselves yet if we work in creative fields. It's not coming for us. Alright, Laura.
Laura Belgray 40:46
Nope.
Katie Fogarty 40:46
Good!
Laura Belgray 40:47
No, I'm not concerned.
Katie Fogarty 40:48
You shouldn't be because your writing is singular. And we need your voice and we need your emails. Everyone needs to like learn in a minute how to subscribe to them. But we are heading into our speed round. It's how we wrap the show. It's just one to two word answers so we can end on a high energy note. So let's do this. Alright, writing Tough Titties was:
Laura Belgray 41:12
Challenging, and challenging and joyful.
Katie Fogarty 41:17
Nice. What is your most flawesome loser power?
Laura Belgray 41:19
Being late.
Katie Fogarty 41:19
It's been years since you've written a TV promo, what show on air today do you wish you could write a promo for?
Laura Belgray 41:33
Succession. But not Succession because it would be too hard and I couldn't do it justice, but Succession.
Katie Fogarty 41:38
Oh my god, I'm addicted. Please, for the love of God, stop using this word in your ad copy:
Laura Belgray 41:46
Juicy.
Katie Fogarty 41:47
I knew that was coming. Alright, not enough people think to use this fabulous word when they're trying to sell something:
Laura Belgray 41:55
I don't, I can't think of one that nobody uses. And if I can, I'm not going to tell you.
Katie Fogarty 42:03
That's true. Alright. Ugh, ugh, and ugh, when I see this email subject line, it makes my skin crawl.
Laura Belgray 42:11
'My most vulnerable email ever.'
Katie Fogarty 42:13
Updating your LinkedIn headline to include the word author, Laura, yes or no?
Laura Belgray 42:19
Oh yeah, I think so.
Katie Fogarty 42:20
Right, why not? We gotta, we need to, we gotta bump you up to the number one spot, right. So we need to have your, a little magic on your LinkedIn headline. Okay.
Laura Belgray 42:32
Yeah. I'll consult with you on that one.
Katie Fogarty 42:34
Finally, your one word answer to complete the sentence, as I age I feel:
Laura Belgray 42:39
Bad about my neck.
Katie Fogarty 42:45
I'm sorry, Nora beat you to that. You can't use that one.
Laura Belgray 42:49
She, no, I blame her. I really, I like, I don't think I would have considered it and it's now, I truly, I know I'm cheating, like that was, you wanted one word.
Katie Fogarty 43:02
We're gonna blame Nora Ephron. And we're gonna blame Zoom, right? Or maybe our phone cameras -
Laura Belgray 43:07
Yes.
Katie Fogarty 43:07
- when we accidentally open them the wrong way.
Laura Belgray 43:12
For sure, it's a horror show. And I do blame her. Like, I don't know if I would have been aware that, like what has happened to my neck had it not been for her essay, which is fantastic. Everyone should read it.
Katie Fogarty 43:24
But don't, exactly.
Laura Belgray 43:25
Don't.
Katie Fogarty 43:25
Not if you want to feel good about your neck. So where can A Certain Age listeners find you, sign up for those emails that I keep raving about, find your book Tough Titties, and just sort of stay abreast of all things, Laura?
Laura Belgray 43:39
Yes. Okay, so, first of all on social, please come find me at Instagram. I'm at @laurabelgray. And then my site is talkingshrimp.com. And you should sign up for my emails at talkingshrimp.com/signup. And my book Tough Titties comes out June 13. So if it's not yet June 13, please, please, please preorder it. And if it's past June 13, please get it. Get more than one copy. Get it for your friends. It's at toughtittiesbook.com, all the booksellers are listed.
Katie Fogarty 44:14
Thank you so much Laura. This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. Before we say goodbye, two things. A quick thank you to everyone who's taken the time to write an Apple podcast review. I see and appreciate you. And come follow the podcast sister account over on Instagram. You can find it at @letsageoutloud. The account spotlights even more stories of women making the most of midlife. Have a story that you want to share? Please head over to @letsageoutloud to submit your story. We would love to feature you. Special thanks to Michael Mancini who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then, age boldly beauties.