Get Out of Your Comfort Zone and Travel the World with Natasha Muslih of The Voyagiste
Show Snapshot:
Meet Natasha Muslih, who went from stay-at-home parent to the founder of the global travel company The Voyagiste in midlife. Natasha spent 2022 leading small group trips in Morocco, Peru, France, and she is poised to head to Italy this spring. She joins me today from Paris to talk about her midlife career pivot, how to turn a deep-seated passion into a paying job, and how, why, and where to travel!
Show Links:
Follow Natasha
Quotable:
We need to be uncomfortable to grow. Growth shouldn't stop at midlife. Going through menopause wreaked havoc with my self confidence and self esteem. But doing something like traveling was exciting and it's pleasurable. It's just an easy kind of way to get out of your comfort zone.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud. Have you ever watched a movie about a big city lawyer turn Bed and Breakfast owner in Vermont and thought, I'd love to do that someday? Or read a book like Under the Tuscan Sun about a woman who switches up her life and decamps to Italy and thought, I want that life? Fantasizing about dream jobs, big juicy adventures and creating what's next is a big part of how we slog through the jobs of our 20s. Getting to midlife often means it's now-or-never time to make those dreams real. My guest today has a dream job - at least it sounds dreamy to me. Natasha Muslih is the founder of the travel company the Yoyagiste and she leads small group tours around the world with the collaboration of lifestyle experts and local guides. Last year she was in Morocco, Peru, and France, and she's poised to head to Italy this spring. She joins me today from Paris to talk about her midlife career pivot, how to turn a deep seated passion into a paying job and of course, how, why and where to travel. If you need some inspo for your own juicy midlife explorations stick around, this show is for you. Welcome Natasha.
Natasha Muslih 1:16
Hi, it's so great to be here and what a nice introduction. Dream job, I love it.
Katie Fogarty 1:20
Oh, well, it does sound so dreamy. And spending time on your website and Instagram and seeing the adventures, the beautiful imagery, you know, it definitely, you know, stokes wanderlust. I would love to just kind of start, tell us where you are, why you're in Paris and when and why you launched this travel company.
Natasha Muslih 1:40
So I'm in Paris this week, because I'm running a small group tour. We're doing, it's called Bites, Bubbles and Bargains. And it's just a theme that I picked up because I noticed on other trips that I've, where I brought people to Paris, they really loved kind of the wine or champagne, the food, and the amazing shopping. So it's a trip, you know, geared around that. So the, you know, basically the trips that I do are trips that I would love to go on myself. And that's kind of how the company started. I had this opportunity, a friend owns this beautiful property in the South West of France and was trying to figure out what to do with it and they were talking to me about it. And I just kind of put two and two together, it was just like this opening that I found that I thought well, you know, why don't I just run, try to run a trip. Because I have a bunch of friends, I know someone who I could run a trip with, maybe we could see where this goes. And it kind of just all led from there, I had no designs on starting a travel company. But just kind of opportunity by opportunity I kind of just, you know, created this thing.
Katie Fogarty 2:55
I love that, that's been actually a theme of this show that I have women guests who've come on to say they started in one place, and then it evolved into another, right. And I think that's actually something that's very magic about getting into midlife and getting going. And like you don't have to know where something is going to end to get started. So when did you, you did that first trip and then it's evolved, and grew into more of a business. So when, when was that first trip? And how many years have you been doing this now?
Natasha Muslih 3:24
So that first trip was in 2015. And I mean, it's been going since then, with the exception of course of two years of COVID. But, you know, like, I mean, I still am trying to figure out where I'm going with this. So you know, I do these trips, trips that I would love to take myself but I also run trips in collaboration with other women doing great things. You know, people like Amanda Thebe who I believe has been on the podcast. She's the author of Menopocalypse, Jenn Salib Huber, who is the menopause nutritionist, and another, Sonia Lavelle, who is a menopause mentor. I mean, it sounds like I'm kind of going in this direction of menopause but at the same time, the trips that I'm doing aren't really like strictly for women. Really, although the theme kind of is that they're generally geared towards women of a certain age.
Katie Fogarty 4:26
That's why you're on the show. I love it. This is, we are your people Natasha and we wanted to, and we want to take these trips with you. And in fact, I'm so glad you mentioned Amanda because that's how I learned about your company, Amanda Thebe, who has been a very wonderful guest on the podcast. I've had the pleasure of being on her podcast, With All Due Respect, and I follow her because she shares so much wonderful common sense advice on fitness and menopause and, and kind of reinventing how we live and take care of our bodies during this phase of life. She has done trips with you in the in the past, and she's doing an upcoming trip and that's what really put you on my radar. And when we connected I just felt like the DNA of your company is so right for the show. You know we are, we're trying new things on for size in midlife and we're looking to sort of create meaning or to realize creative sort of passions. And I would just love to ask you, you know, what were you doing before you launched this in 2015 and, you know, did anything in your background make it make sense to be launching a travel company?
Natasha Muslih 5:35
Well, I mean, before I launched the Voyagiste, I was, for the most part, a stay at home mom. I mean, my background, educational and kind of career track background, was in journalism. I have a master's degree in journalism, I worked for various lifestyles magazines, and I sort of gave it all up when I had my first child, and we moved back to Canada, from London, England. And so I, you know, at that point, I decided, okay, I'll just stay at home and be a mom and I did take, I did, you know, some freelance editing throughout those years, but, you know, nothing travel related. So then, of course, you know, this opportunity came up to run a trip. And I just, I kind of feel like all these different things that I've done in my life sort of feels like a preface to starting the Voyagiste, because, you know, being a journalist, I mean, you know this, is that you're essentially kind of helping tell people's stories. And creating these trips, you are sort of doing the same thing, kind of helping people live a sort of story, while they're, you know, creating a story while they're living it somewhere, you know, on the road somewhere. So I mean,
Katie Fogarty 6:51
I love how these threads came together. And really, and I definitely love this notion of creating a story for the week that you're on and, and I wish I was with you in France for this bubbles and bargains and bites. That's such a phenomenal trip. So tell us about some of your other trips that you ran this past year and what do you have on the horizon?
Natasha Muslih 7:13
Um, this, I mean, this last year I ran, you know, I've done a lot of, people love going to Morocco, so I do a lot of fun trips to Morocco. And I did, last year I did my first trip to Peru and that was a hike in the Andes. And we also visited Machu Picchu, that was an incredible trip, because we all kind of had to help each other up the mountain, so to speak. And France is also a very popular place, I do trips to Paris, and also the south of France. I've run trips in Italy, Spain. Just last week, I was researching a trip in Argentina. I went to Patagonia in Argentina and it was amazing, and I'm really looking forward to running a trip there. I mean, there's just so many trips going on. And next year in the spring, I'll be going back to Peru, I'll be doing a trip to Jordan, and France. There's just, there's just really the best place to find out where I'm running trips is to go on my website, but they're just always evolving, I love researching new places and you know, coming up with new tricks, new stories, basically.
Katie Fogarty 8:31
I love this. First of all, you do have the dream job. It's not, everyone who's listening right now is nodding their head thinking, you know, how can I be Natasha? But you know, I'm sure that it's not always glamorous. You know, when we think about things like running a culinary school or being a traveling, you know, guide, or owning a charming inn which I was joking about earlier. You know, the end of the day work is still work. Running a company takes time and grit, what has been one of your biggest challenges of launching and scaling the Voyagiste?
Natasha Muslih 9:01
Oh, I mean, I'm still trying to figure out how to scale it. And so that's probably my biggest challenge. But, I mean, it's true. Like, I mean, there are the dreamy aspects of it. I mean, I get to go and visit these incredible places, and meet all sorts of interesting people. But you know, the thing you don't see is that I'm also spending hours in front of a computer, trying to figure out accounting and, you know, all the paperwork that's involved in it, there's just that, that's a big part of it, too. And there's a lot that goes, has to go on in the background for a trip to happen successfully. And you know, there are a lot of people out there who really hate I mean, this is, this was a completely - it blew my mind when I found out - that there are people out there who really do not enjoy planning trips, because it's something I love doing so much. When I learned that there are people who don't like running trips, and I realized well actually it's a lot of work for some people and it's also a lot of work for me, it's just that it's work that I enjoy.
Katie Fogarty 10:03
I absolutely enjoy planning trips. It gets me super excited. I love researching them, I get charged up, but I get it, you know, people are busy and they want to sometimes outsource this. So for a listener who's thinking, you know, sold, I want to sign up for one Natasha's trips, fill us in a little bit on how it works. What is the size of the group, you know, how do you break your trips down? Is it all like, you know, sightseeing, is their leisure time, is their free time? Walk us through what your average trip looks like, because obviously, you know, a hiking trip is going to feel a little bit different from a wine trip in Italy.
Natasha Muslih 10:38
I mean, I would say that the average trip is, the average trip size would be about 8 to 12 people, it could be a little more but not really less. And like max, max, max 14 people. And what I do like to do is have kind of a planned activity every day. And then I also like to give people some time, you know, for the rest of the day to kind of you know, maybe there's something that they want to do that's not included in the itinerary or some people just need time, you know, on their own because it can be a lot to be with a group the whole time. Although I have found that despite the fact like, despite the fact that I give people time on the itinerary to do things on their own or explore on their own, it tends to be that there's just such a camaraderie during the trip that people end up hanging out the entire time. I mean, I call it like summer camp for grownups in a way. It's just so fun, it's so fun. It's like how many opportunities do you have in midlife to meet new people and make new you know, friendships?
Katie Fogarty 11:50
Absolutely, it's so bonding to be in new places with people. I just had the pleasure of doing a weekend retreat with about 30 women and then you know, maybe 70 more came in for a day trip and it was, I just felt like I met and connected with women that I'm going to keep up with and I'm now following on social media. We, it's wonderful to add new people to our lives. Natasha, we're heading into a quick break but when we come back, I want to talk about some of the other benefits of group travel.
[AD BREAK]
Natasha, we're back. We talked about summer camp for grownups. I was nodding my head, I'm like that sounds delightful. I will do summer camp in Paris any day. What are some of the other benefits that you see of group travel now that you've spent, you know, this many years leading these small curated trips?
Natasha Muslih 13:32
Well, I always say that it's really good to get out of your comfort zone. And obviously travel gets us out of you know, our homes and what we're used to, it's getting us out of our comfort zone. And I just think that it's such a good thing. Because I mean, first of all it is you know, like being in our comfort zone is a good thing. It's safe and safe feels good. But it's also a fact that we need to be uncomfortable to grow. And you know, like that growth shouldn't stop at midlife. I found personally that, you know, going through menopause, kind of wreaked havoc with my self confidence and self esteem. But doing something like traveling was just a, it's exciting and it's pleasurable. It's just an easy kind of way to get out of your comfort zone. I mean, being fully aware that you know, these kinds of trips aren't possible for everyone but, as a chance for you to grow.
Katie Fogarty 14:25
I also find that you know, when I'm when I put my physical body in new places and see the beauty of a new landscape when you're having different foods and you're experiencing different cultures, you know, your synapses start firing differently, right, your brain gets excited, you, you're, you know you come back, I come back with new ideas about what I want to do and try and I feel like it's, you know, sometimes I worry that you know, when I'm at home sometimes I can't, I walk into a room and I can't remember why I got there, you know, or why I came upstairs for something and I go back downstairs and I get back to my desk and like, oh, right, I went back for the charger, you know, your brain's not working that well. But travel, fires neutrons in different ways. Tell us -
Natasha Muslih 15:11
Oh, sorry, I was just gonna say that, you know, I find that when I'm traveling, I kind of start looking forward to being back at home because it gives me these ideas that kind of help me be more creative, and even productive. Like, I just think when I'm away, it's like, wow, all those things that I can do. You know, it just gives me fire in a way. It's just, there's just, it can give you superpowers in a way, I guess.
Katie Fogarty 15:32
Absolutely. Natasha, let's switch gears for a minute, though, because you said something earlier that, that I want to explore. You said that sometimes these you know, these small group trips are not available to everyone. Obviously it's expensive to fly to a different country, it's expensive to get on an airplane. Travel with family, it can be very expensive. I know you've got kids, I saw from your website and sort of a quick Google search that you do travel with your family regularly, you did a major trip over one summer, where you rented out your own home. And I would love for you to walk our listeners through what that looks like, and how we might choose to incorporate that in our own lives and travel budgets.
Natasha Muslih 16:14
Oh, yeah. So I actually have been, we've been renting out our home, every year for the past, I think 15 years, ever since my children were babies, basically. And it was a way for us to kind of help offset the costs of going on big trips. And anyone, like many people can do this. You know, we use a specific website that's called Sabbatical Homes. It's geared to people in the academic and professional communities, but you can, there's so many home exchanges and Airbnb, of course, where you can rent out your home. And if you feel comfortable doing it, and we, it's helped us, you know, show our children the world, really.
Katie Fogarty 17:02
So, Natasha, do you have any other money saving tips that you can share for travel?
Natasha Muslih 17:08
You know, using, maximizing your credit card points can help with airline tickets or hotels. I mean there are all kinds of points programs, that's a useful way to, you know, help lower costs. And I also kind of like to do a high low thing when traveling because we as a family take off for two, like the entire summer break for the kids. So it's two months off, and we leave for two months. And so in that time, I like to do you know, sometimes we'll stay somewhere that's more expensive. And then other times, you know, like during that same trip, partly it will be less expensive, or there are ways of doing things where you go to a fancy dinner maybe, but then you know, like, several other meals will be less so. So yeah, high low is a nice way of doing things.
Katie Fogarty 18:00
And do you rent homes with your family? Or do you stay in hotels? Because hotels really add up and I'm the mom of three so you know, with my husband, that's five of us. And it's really hard to get five people in one room. And it can be hard to get five people in two rooms sometimes.
Natasha Muslih 18:15
Yeah, we do. I mean, since we tend to go away for you know, long periods of time, we do tend to rent homes as well. I mean, there's the benefit of having, you know, all the conveniences of home, you know, like a kitchen, laundry facilities, but also the space. I mean, with three kids or two kids or even one child, it's just nice to have that added space because hotel rooms, especially, you know, in some parts of the world can be very small. And you do need that space, especially when you're traveling with your family kind of to break away from them sometimes. And it's hard to do when you're all stuck in the same hotel room.
Katie Fogarty 18:52
Absolutely. And so I'm curious, what have been some of the favorite places you visited as a family? What has been a favorite trip that you've taken with the Voyagiste?
Natasha Muslih 19:03
Ooh, that's a tough question because we've had so many incredible trips, both, you know, with family and also with the Voyagiste. But for family I would say the most special trips have been related to my and my husband's own personal family background. So I'm, my mom's Filipino and my dad's Iraqi. Obviously, we haven't taken the children to Iraq, because it's very difficult to do that. But you know, taking them to the Middle East, and visiting those countries and taking them to the Philippines has been very special. And they're beautiful places. I mean, I think everyone should try to visit them.
Katie Fogarty 19:44
Where in the Middle East have you taken your kids?
Natasha Muslih 19:46
Um, we've taken them to Jordan and Morocco.
Katie Fogarty 19:51
Nice.
Natasha Muslih 19:51
I'm trying to think. And of course Israel as well. I mean, they're beautiful places and spending time you know, in the, in a desert, in a Bedouin camp in Jordan, you know, looking at the stars in the sky is just -
Katie Fogarty 20:06
That sounds so fabulous. That's definitely on my list. My daughter, Grace, who is a senior in college and is a scuba diver just got to spend several weeks in Egypt, diving in the Red Sea and they were bordered, you know, it's the Red Sea on one side and then the desert on the other. And she said, the stars were miraculous, you know, that just because there's so little light pollution. And, you know, that's, that's, that's high on my list. So if you wind up organizing -
Natasha Muslih 20:08
Maybe you can join me in Georgia next year.
Katie Fogarty 20:39
Who knows, never say never. It sounds exciting. And I've actually had the pleasure of visiting the Philippines. I lived in Japan after college and traveled in Asia for about six months before I returned home and spent about a month in the Philippines. This was years ago and I went to some beautiful places like Bohol to see The Chocolate Hills and went to Boracay, which was such a small beautiful, pristine island at the time, I think it's changed a bit there's been a lot more development. Where in the Philippines should we put on our list if I, if I can get back there?
Natasha Muslih 21:10
I mean, you've named two of the top places. Boracay if you went there, you know, years and years ago, it was probably still you know, like you say less developed and it did get a lot of development and you know, pollution in a way but then they shut it down for a while. So it's back to having these beautiful white powder beaches. And so it is still on the list, you know, Bohol for The Chocolate Hills. It's a stunning landscape. Palawan is another place that's just got beautiful like coves and water. I mean, the Philippines is you know, 7,400-something islands, it's and, so, so many different experiences you can have and among the warmest and most hospitable people you'll ever meet. So I don't think you can really go wrong by just kind of picking any area there. There's something of interest.
Katie Fogarty 22:03
I love it. What's a bucket list destination for the company? Where have you, I know you said Patagonia is one, you know if you could, you may not be planning it yet but if you could get there in the next couple of years, where would it be and why?
Natasha Muslih 22:18
I mean, I think I would probably say the Philippines because it's such an important part for me, and I'd love to share it with people. But personally, as a bucket list, I'm not sure if I would be able to take people just because I'm not sure if there's as much interest but I'd love to visit the five, quote stands of the Silk Road. Like Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Kazakhstan. I just in my imagination, I think it would be a beautiful place and it kind of an interesting, overall interesting cultural experience.
Katie Fogarty 22:54
It sounds phenomenal. So you know, when people travel, you know, what is something that you think that, what's sort of an attribute or quality that makes somebody a good traveler? You know, I'm curious, because you're leading group trips, you know, I'm sure there are people with different appetites for adventure. What is something that is sort of a universal quality that makes somebody a terrific travel companion?
Natasha Muslih 23:17
I mean, I think that there are the obvious qualities like curiosity, openness, a willingness to learn, also, like a sense of adventure, and an ability to adapt. Because you know, things don't always go to plan, which can be a good thing, by the way, but being able to not dwell on what's gone wrong, and also kind of being open to change are qualities that are great for travelers, but also on a practical level, I think, an ability to pack light because it's just so much easier to travel unencumbered -
Katie Fogarty 23:54
Yes
Natasha Muslih 23:55
- by like too many things. And also you end up you know, accumulating things on travels anyway, so.
Katie Fogarty 24:01
Natasha, this is just a metaphor for life and for midlife, honestly. Like everything that you just outlined - that spirit of curiosity, adventure, openness, willingness to roll with the punches, and not to drag around a lot of baggage, right. So we're entering midlife, we could be dragging a lot of baggage with us. So I think you know, when, when you have the ability to pack light and have sort of that joyful spirit, it's not you know, only for travel, I think we should all sort of take on those qualities as we, as we move into our you know, second, third, fourth and fifth acts.
Natasha Muslih 24:33
Exactly, because like midlife and beyond is also kind of a trip in and of itself, so.
Katie Fogarty 24:38
Totally. So I wanted to ask you, before we move into our speed round and sort of wrap up our travel thing, I want to ask a little bit about the business of building a business because if a listener is thinking, you know, that sounds amazing, I would love to launch my own travel company, or they may be thinking to themselves, you know, Natasha did this I'm ready to finally like open my knitting shop or my yoga studio or to just make their passion into a paying job, what is a piece of tactical advice that you would give to a budding entrepreneur about how to realize their vision for creating and turning a passion into a job?
Natasha Muslih 25:19
Gosh, I think probably the best, I'll just share the best advice that I received when kind of thinking about what I was doing was, a friend of mine told me, the thing that I needed to do was meet with someone different. Every week, just make a plan to meet someone for coffee once a week for you know, the foreseeable future, and just with no kind of agenda just to talk to them. And I didn't think anything would come of it. So I just kind of met people. You know, it started off with people I knew. And then they would say, oh, you know, you got to meet my friends, so and so. And just talking to people, you know, in a variety, a variety of different people kind of really sort of helped me on the business side, it's, we, I have a hard time describing how that worked but it just really helped.
Katie Fogarty 26:14
I think you do that because, you know, we have to expand our network of people. And I, you know, I would sort of take what you shared and maybe take it one step further by saying we need to let people know what we're up to. Because that, when we put things out into the universe, when I launched the podcast, and I told people, I'm launching a podcast, and I'm looking for information on how to host it and who would do the audio, this is how you start to get resources and information, educate yourself, and then also get people's buy in and, and excitement and information. So I think that's, that's a great piece of advice. I would also say that you can, you know, you can learn a lot by researching through things like, you know, LinkedIn, this is how I find a lot of my podcast guests. I would also say interesting people know interesting people, I met Natasha through Amanda, you know, and so, once you start putting yourself in action for whatever your your, you know, vision is for your your job, your next act, your passion, you can then kind of have that six degrees of separation that might connect you with a person that's going to really make a difference for you and your business.
Natasha Muslih 27:28
Yeah, and actually, for anyone who's listening, you know, who might be going through menopause and the, you know, possibly having issues with self confidence or self esteem, I think it's really also important to kind of own it. Don't be shy, just, you know, this is a passion that you have, you know, these thoughts, you're thinking of starting whatever business, just go for it, you have nothing to lose. And if you don't go for it, you, you know, you may regret what you hadn't even thought of, you know.
Katie Fogarty 28:00
You only regret the things that you didn't try, right.
Natasha Muslih 28:02
Exactly.
Katie Fogarty 28:02
We don't regret, exactly. I love it. All right. So Natasha, we're gonna move into our speed round, we need to get you back to your Paris trip. We need to make sure that you've got a glass of champagne in your hand soon. I know it's late from where you are. So, I so appreciate your time and, and conversation. So we're going to do our speed round so we can set you back onto the streets of Paris. Are you ready?
Natasha Muslih 28:25
I am.
Katie Fogarty 28:26
Okay. Launching the Voyagiste was:
Natasha Muslih 28:29
Scary.
Katie Fogarty 28:30
Scary, nice. Okay, honest answers are always appreciated. I think I might know the answer to this one but I'm asking it anyway. The country I could return to again and again is:
Natasha Muslih 28:41
France.
Katie Fogarty 28:42
Ooh, I thought you're gonna say the Philippines but France, France is always a good idea. On my bucket list and not the Kazakhstan, the stans, since we already covered that. What's another bucket list destination?
Natasha Muslih 28:55
Um, Newfoundland.
Katie Fogarty 28:57
Ooh, okay, that came out of left field. Can I ask why?
Natasha Muslih 29:03
Well, you know, I do, most of my travel is international and it, this is the other thing is most of my travel's international and when I'm away, I think Wow, there's so many beautiful places here in Europe, or Asia or Africa or wherever. But then, you know, these beautiful places also exist in my own home, like I live in Canada and I have hardly explored it. And Newfoundland is there and it looks beautiful. And I think there's, Newfoundland is just one of many places in Canada that would, that are very worthwhile visiting I think.
Katie Fogarty 29:34
Yeah, we have beauty right in our own backyard. Okay, surprise, this super trendy destination disappointed me:
Natasha Muslih 29:43
Oh my gosh. I feel like I might be stumped.
Katie Fogarty 29:50
That is good. You pick well. All right, moving on, put this underrated destination on your list:
Natasha Muslih 29:57
I've said the Philippines so many times, maybe it's not even underrated, so let me think of something else. Underrated? Again I'm, Oh, maybe Montenegro.
Katie Fogarty 30:08
Okay, check bags or carry on?
Natasha Muslih 30:11
Carry on all the way.
Katie Fogarty 30:12
Packing list or do you wing it?
Natasha Muslih 30:15
Kind of a bit of both.
Katie Fogarty 30:17
Alright, hybrid. Best tip for jetlag?
Natasha Muslih 30:20
Don't think of the time zone that you've left just only live in the zone that you're in.
Katie Fogarty 30:26
Smart. Okay, finally your one word answer to complete this sentence, as I age I feel:
Natasha Muslih 30:32
Grateful.
Katie Fogarty 30:33
Aw, nice. Thank you, Natasha. This was such a treat. You've gotten me excited about travel. And I'm sure my listeners are going to be checking your trip out. Before we say goodbye, how can they find you and your company and learn more about your travel offerings?
Natasha Muslih 30:50
You can find me on thevoyagiste.com and also on Instagram at @thevoyagiste.
Katie Fogarty 30:56
Thank you. This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. Thank you for listening in and being a friend of the show. If you are an ACA fan, if the show adds some zip to your workout, your car commute, or daily walk. If the show makes you happier, smarter, more inspired or simply makes you feel like you're hanging out with some fun friends, please think about writing an Apple Podcast review. It's super easy to do. Just open the podcast app, find the show, and scroll to the end. Special thanks to Michael Mancini you composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then aged boldly, beauties.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai