Self-Love at Any Age, Weight or Circumstance with Body-Inclusive Trailblazer Sarah Sapora
Show Snapshot:
Ready to jettison the weight of other people’s expectations, stop chasing the modern Holy Grail of endless personal *optimization*, address your sh*T (whaaaatever it is), and live a self-loving life? Please meet Sarah Sapora, a body-inclusive personal growth trailblazer and inspirational speaker who is about to radically change your life with the ideas in her new book, “Soul Archeology: A Totally Doable Approach to Creating a Self-Loving and Liberated Life.” If you are ready to be the best version of yourself while also loving your current self, this show is for you!
Show Links:
Follow Sarah
Sarah’s Book: Soul Archaeology: A (Totally Doable) Approach to Creating a Self-Loving and Liberated Life
Quotable:
I want a person who has always felt invisible and unrepresented… maybe a little bit judged and a little bit unsafe in the world of self-help, to immediately know you are safe with me here, you and your messy, beautiful imperfections. And whether you deem those imperfections to be your weight, or your age, or the fact that your boobs may not be as perky as they once were, or your life may feel like a bit of a hot mess, I want you to know that in your imperfections—you are enough.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to a certain age a show for women are unafraid to age out loud UT's every week I received messages from a certain age pod listeners. They thanked me for the most recent show suggest future topics wonder where the missing shownotes can be found. Yes, I'm running behind. But often they share their struggle struggles with their changing bodies, relationships, identities, sense of self, we are age positive over here in a certain age pod. In fact, positive is the gear we generally use to navigate this thing called life. But let's be real sometimes this shit is hard. I am really excited to introduce you to my guest today. Sarah Sapporo is a plus sized personal growth Trailblazer, and evangelists for radical self love at any age, weight or circumstance and a radiant beam of light on the internet and beyond. She is also the brand new author of soul archaeology, a totally doable approach to creating a self loving and liberated life. If you are ready to be the best version of yourself while also loving your current self. If you want to break free of other people's expectations to live life on your own terms. Stick around this show is for you. Welcome, Sarah. You I can't believe
Speaker 1 1:15
you called me a beam of light. I'll I'll take that one. Yes, that's a good one. I'll take it. Yeah,
Katie Fogarty 1:23
you you have such gorgeous energy. And I love following you on Instagram, when I got your book and hand and I'm going to you know, put up a social post up so everyone can see it. You just radiate warmth and energy. And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you after spending time with your beautiful book. And one of the things that I want to ask you about is something that I saw on your website when I got on there, which says that self love and personal development do not have a dress size. Yet anyone who's been in Barnes and Noble, which is stuffed to the brim of self help books, you know, recognizes that so many self health and professional development books, center what you ID as being youthful, thin, pretty people. Why does the world need so archaeology?
Speaker 1 2:15
Oh, thank you. Okay, so wonderful, wonderful question. And I have a big smile on my face right now, which you can probably hear, let me start by saying I have no problem in the world with useful, slender, you know, beautiful people of every kind, I really don't. My challenge is that so many of us don't fall into that demographic, and we don't identify with it. And furthermore, we can actually find it a bit alienating. When we're sort of doing that initial surface level comparison, what can this person possibly understand about my pain kind of thing, right? Because when we're going through shit, we tend to think that we're the only ones who feel that way. It feels sort of very ego centered, this is my shit, my pain. And it's very easy for us to sort of sort everything that we see and say, Who can I relate to, who will help me not feel so alone, who out there can understand what I'm experiencing. And I truly believe that no matter where we are in our journey of life, at any age, any weight, any place we are in life, we all deserve to feel hope, and to be empowered to create change. And so I think it's incredibly important that we start sharing the stories and journeys and representation of people who don't fall into the traditional Eyes, eyes, traditional definitions of beauty, or the traditional societal norms of what would be considered desirable, right? That we show more people from a variety of perspectives and a variety of life circumstances, ages, weights, places in life, showing and really telling people what it can be like to create change in your life for real. And you share that, that my book sort of has a beaming picture of me on it, which I didn't do because I really wanted to see my face because that's not it. But I I fought very hard to have my image on the cover of this book. Because usually in self help books unless you're kind of like a super celebrity, they don't put your face on the book, because they don't want the reader to identify with you. They want the reader to identify with the teaching. And I'm in my mid 40s, like safely were there I'll be 45 in like a week right? So we're here and I am, I am a plus size woman and you know, not like a sort of a cute size 12 Like ima safely larger plus size woman. And there are very few people, if any, in the self help world sharing from my perspective. So I remember being that that teenager and that little girl growing up in New York City like walking through the Union Square, Barnes and Noble, right, because that was a big, big deal, not the annex, but the good one with all the books or the one on 23rd Street. And I remember walking through and not seeing anybody that looked like me. And so, I fought to have my image on the cover, because I wanted a person who has always felt invisible and unrepresented and unspoken to and therefore maybe a little bit judged and a little bit unsafe in the world of self help, to immediately know you are safe with me here, you and your messy, beautiful imperfections. And whether you deem those imperfections to be because of your weight, or your age, or the fact that your boobs may not be as perky as they once were, or your life may feel like a bit of a hot mess, I wanted you to know that in your imperfections. You were enough. And I hope that when people see that they realize that that is all you have to be. That is that is all you have to be. So that was my meandering way of answering your question, Joe, I
Katie Fogarty 6:30
love it. I love hearing this backstory. And sir, I will say that you are not the first guest to come on this show and talk about the lack of representation in the wellness and self help space. And this is one of the reasons why I wanted to have a conversation with you I had the absolute pleasure of having fun meet Sadie on the show who wrote a book called Joy is my justice. She's an integrative physician who works in community marginalized communities, largely with people of refugees, people who have survived trauma. And she wrote her book because she felt that the wellness space was very white, and that it was not accessible to broad enough people, group of people. I had Laura Cathcart Robbins, come on, who wrote a book about her sobriety and her recovery after you know, debilitating addiction to pills. And she shared that quit lit is very white as well. And that, oh, yeah, a little light color are included in that space tends to be people you know, it's it's about sort of poverty and racism and crime versus a woman that looked like her somebody who had a professional life. And so their rapid representation matters. I love what you shared about walking into a bookstore as a kid and then sort of looking around and being like, there's nothing here for me, and I don't love it, I it's painful to hear that. But I love that you shared it.
Speaker 1 7:49
Listen, the the wellness industry, we all know, like, let's just throw this out there, the wellness industry has had a massive whitewash and problem and a massive diversity problem. I have yet to see the trends of inclusion that are finally starting to take over the wellness industry make it into self help. While the wellness industry over the last few years has evolved quite a bit in bringing all marginalized bodies to the table, whether it's persons of color age. Often, oftentimes, the last people that we see being thought of are people of size and larger people. And that's an entire different conversation. But I have yet to see, moving away from straight up wellness, like into the self help space, because we tend to not like like somebody decides who's the perfect teacher and who's not right, who is deemed the perfect person to be teaching anybody about what self love is. And I think there tends to be less of a tolerance for those who don't sort of fall into what the definition of ideal would be. So obviously, it's a topic that I'm super passionate about,
Katie Fogarty 8:58
you're here and you're here. For that, yeah, you're here, you're, you're changing that. And we're going to, we're going to dive into the book and the different tools that you offer in just a minute. I do want to also clarify that your book, you know, even though I introduce you as a plus sized thought leader and a community builder, because that was in your bio, you talk about your advocacy in this area. But this book is also for everyone, right? This is like it's for any age, any size anybody and I definitely want to clarify that we're gonna walk through the tools in a few minutes. But before we do that, I do want to talk specifically about the link between weight and self worth in your book. Because that is showing you shared studies that show that that people who are larger, you know, whatever word you want to be using plus size, fat, whatever, all the words I just use or appear in your book, but I was really surprised to see some of the information that you share that people who are you know, bigger feel they have less agency over their own lives. They have less hope they can make changes and realize goals. And I would love for you to do a little stage setting and walk our listeners now what you discovered and what your experience has been with us.
Speaker 1 10:10
Sure, I thought that's a wonderful question. Thank you. So let me clarify exactly what you just said so that people can hear it from my voice. I am obviously a plus size woman. But this book is not about fat, self love. In fact, that's one of the that's literally the first line in the introduction. In this book is, this book is about self love, and not fat, self love, it was about fat, self love, it would really center my weight in the conversation in this book, it doesn't. But by me, being very open and honest about my body, I do feel that that welcomes people to the table who wouldn't normally feel safe. The person that is going to resonate the best with this book is going to be frankly, anybody that has ever really struggled with self esteem. And that can come in any package and any size. Anybody that who has ever traded away a bit of their self worth in order to feel that they have approval from someone, anybody who has ever taken a little bit of an ice pick to their self esteem in order to feel more loved and valuable and worthy. And that can come from any size. That's the person who's going to radiate the most with this book. But the truth is, I wrote this book to be the book that I would have needed many years ago when I was in a dark moment for me. So I have worked in women's plus size fashion since 2010. And so there's quite a bit of awareness that I have both as a plus size woman myself and understanding consumers about sort of, you know, sociological stuff, and psychology and size and self esteem and all those things. But one of the things that I always knew in my heart, like I knew, but it was kind of like an icky sticky thing I didn't want to say out loud, because I didn't want people on the internet to get upset at me was that the heavier I got, the harder it was for me to feel happy. Now, I think it's important to clarify for readers that when I say heavier, respectfully, again, please I'm very frank person. I don't mean at a size 14, I mean that over 350 pounds, 360 pounds, heavy to the point where I couldn't walk without my legs buckling underneath me or accomplishing daily tasks that people probably think nothing of, like, am I going to do the dishes today? Or do the laundry because I only have energy for one, right? So the heavier I got, the harder it was for me like for me to feel like I could create change. And nobody out there was talking to somebody like me, everybody out there was saying, well just embrace joyful movement or do things that will make you happy, and I wanted to be like, excuse my language. Listen, bitch, if I could fucking move joyfully, leave me, I would fucking do it. Like, if I could just do the shit that would make me happy, like, believe me, I would be the first person to do it. But right now I feel like I am trapped under such a mountain of my own dogshit making that I have no idea what to do. So anything that you're gonna say, to me just feels like pandering. And I've known that in my heart for a long time, especially as somebody whose weight has fluctuated my whole life and probably will continue as I as I continue to negotiate and navigate what true health looks like for me from the inside out. But I found a study one day that literally made me gasp and cry, and feel so seen. Because when I was doing all this research about weight and psychology and stuff, it all kind of lumps all persons of size within the same category. And I would always say don't you can't do that shit to me, right? There's no way a person who is 30 or 40, or 50 pounds heavier than might be ideal has the same lived experience as someone who's 200 pounds heavier than might be idea like, Why isn't anybody acknowledging how hard it can be? And I found a study that said that, at a certain point in time, what the medical community refers to as obesity level three, which is not a conversation we're going to have now but we'll have with you any day about the we're usage of the word obesity and the BMI, etc, etc. But at a certain point in time, we do actually have studies that show that a person's sense of agency is reduced. And their ability to have pathway thinking becomes reduced. And that means two things. One, that the heavier a person is if they are a larger person They will have less of a feeling of empowerment that they can create change in their own life, they will feel less capable of creating change we don't have, when we lack personal agency, we lack personal freedom, right? We don't have it, we don't have agency over our own being. And the second part of that was saying that the heavier we are, the harder it is to have pathway thinking. Now what that means when we have pathway thinking, it means the process of going, Oh, this sucks, too, oh, I could do this, and it will make it better. It's the point A to the point B, it's the pain to relief pathway of thinking that when you are heavier, it becomes much harder to do. And when I heard those statistics, I cried, because I felt so seen. And I was so shocked that it was the only study that I found, that acknowledged the actual psychological impact of what it felt like to be much heavier. Because
Katie Fogarty 16:06
incredibly, it's just, it's even painful to hear you talk about it. And, and it's just so I'm so delighted that you found this thing that where you finally felt seen and that you were able to then take this moment and turn it into something that's now benefiting other people, we're heading into a quick break. But when we come back, I want to hear what happened when you decided to sort of claim or agency over over the situation. We'll be right back. Sarah, we're back from the break, you shared a really moving moment in time when you found this study, you felt seen and you recognize that that there is this sort of loss of agency that people feel what came next
Speaker 1 16:53
Wonderful question, but I will tell you that what came next was just a big kick in the ass that what I had already been trying to do was needed. I knew this to be true, because I had already forged ahead for myself, right? Like I had already taken, you know, when you go to Baskin Robbins, and you get like one of those little pink spoons, a little taster spoons, right? They're super tiny. Yes, I already taken a taste, respond to my own pile of shit and started to dig my way out. But when I saw this study, what it made me realize was just how important it was that I keep doing what I'm doing. I don't consider myself to be a fat advocate. Meaning I do Empower I do believe that all bodies should be empowered. But I'm not one of those people that says that you don't have a right to lose weight or want to lose weight or make changes. Why I knew this was important was because if over 70% of people in this country are plus size, then what that means is that the wellness community and the personal growth community really has to do a better job of meeting people where they're at. Because if all people deserve to create change in life, whether that changes to lose weight, or walk away from a crappy relationship or feel more powerful as they age or embrace their changing body, whatever it is, if if more people in this country are heavier than not, then we need to do a better job of reaching people where they're at and saying you too deserve to feel however fucking great that you want to feel in your life
Katie Fogarty 18:25
and we all want to feel fucking great.
Speaker 1 18:28
Everybody deserves to feel fucking great. Like all that does not have a dress size. age out of it. It's there. Of course, there we all
Katie Fogarty 18:37
want to feel fucking great. And which is why you're on the show. Because you being if you bring a very fresh you know, a take on, on on self improvement and sort of this notion of before and after because self improvement, when will we hear it? It sounds like okay, we start off one way, and we're going to improve ourselves and we're going to wind up someplace different. And that is not something that informs your work. Can you can you talk a little bit about what your work brings people to, and also this notion of before and after?
Speaker 1 19:08
Sure. My work brings people to the reality and the realization that we are messy and imperfect people and beings, and that the idea of chasing perfection is literally just going to leave us spinning in our sails. And what we have been taught to participate in the system of wellness that we have been taught is what we're supposed to believe is this idea of the before and after. Whether it's looking at weight loss photos or looking at you know, before my divorce or after my divorce, whatever it is we are taught that once we land on whatever the magical solution it is that we think we've been dreaming for that all of our ducks are going to be in the row. All the chips going to be great and bam, everything is just going to magically fall into place. And in reality, like, that's kind of horseshit right? There is no final after as long as you are here and alive and on this planet, and breathing, you are evolving, you are constantly in flux and and changing. So rather than think about yourself as a before and after, think about yourself as a stack of squiggles, that is just continually wrapping around each other folding over each other. And your goal is not to be this finite, untouchable version of yourself, but instead to be something very different. Which is your ultimate you Is it okay, if I might migrate into that? Yeah, let's do it.
Katie Fogarty 20:38
That's yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 20:40
Okay. All right. So my goal, not my goal, my hope for everybody is who was listening is not that you are ever and after, and not that you ever feel pressure to be an after or be perfect, but that you work instead towards something that I refer to as your ultimate you. Now when I say that, you probably have an image of you in mind, right? Maybe it's, I don't know, whatever it is, but when I say go be your ultimate you, you probably think it has something specifically to do with your weight, your age, your boobs, your wrinkles, your money, your marital status, all of that. Excuse my language, fuck that. I believe that your ultimate you is two things. One, defined by your ability to be incredibly self aware. And listen to yourself at any given time when you say what is hurting me. So your ultimate you is dependent on your ability to be connected to yourself and your ability to be self aware. The second thing your ultimate you is, is fiercely committed to whatever you've learned, when you say what's hurting me right now and to serving your life with self love. I have a super specific dition definition of self love, and I'll share that with you in one second. But notice when I said ultimate you I didn't say it has anything to do with weight, money, blah, blah, blah. It has everything to do with your ability to connect to yourself and listen to yourself and follow through and take action. You cannot be your ultimate you when you are bullshitting yourself. You cannot be your ultimate you when you are in denial, when you are self abandoning, when you are doing any of those things, your ultimate you is contingent on your ability to listen and connect yourself and then take action. Self Love, which is the biggest thing that I teach, and I try and help other people to understand. It's not about like sort of the frilly bubble bath stuff. But self love can be really gritty. I believe that self love is any thought that you think or action that you take, that will connect you to your ultimate you. So the things in life that are the most, most self loving, are the things in life that are going to help you feel empowered and connected to yourself. Whereas things that are not self loving in life are going to take away from that. And that is what I hope people can learn to embrace and strive towards being in life. Because your ultimate you will evolve as you evolve your ultimate you will be different at 40 than it will be at 50 then it will be at 5560. Right? Our ultimate you evolves as we evolve. But it is always defined by those few qualities. And so what I hope people will do and what I teach people to do is to live a self loving life. And when I say I want you to live a self loving life, what I say is that I don't care whatever mistakes you feel like you've made in the past and however you feel like you've been defined by those things, you have a choice every day, every time that you breathe, to serve yourself, you have a choice to say I am going to serve myself with what it takes for me to be my ultimate you which is different than their ultimate you and different from hers and different from hers. It is unique to you and defined by your values and what you need to feel empowered.
Katie Fogarty 24:12
So it's so first of all, I love the notion that not even the notion I love that you clarify that the ultimate you is not fixed in stone. Because I think when we're younger sometimes we look ahead and we think you know when we get older like when we grow up or when an adult like we're gonna have it figured it out. And then you get to adulthood at whatever phase you in and you realize there's no figuring it out like not you're like oh my god, everyone's been winging it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 24:41
I still am like, what am I gonna be grown up and right. Oh, and it's just grown up
Katie Fogarty 24:46
and it's you know, it's sometimes that feels tenuous, but sometimes it feels really liberating. Because you don't have to be set in stone and you always not only do you always have the option you will always be changing. So I think The sooner people embrace the fact that it's just it's never done, the better. So thank you for setting that sort of stage that like we're not an ultimate you evolves to and that's the good and the bad news, right? Because you, you have to, you've got to keep manage, you've got to keep keeping yourself in alignment. But one of the things that popped into my mind while you were talking, and I feel like I'm a little bit ahead of the game, because I've been spending time with your book, but for listeners who have not yet done that, who is sitting there thinking, this all sounds like delightful and amazing, like, I want to be connected to my ultimate you and behaving in ways that get me there and living the self loving life. But for somebody who's thinking, I have no idea what my values are, and my ultimate you is, you know, because that happens. I hear from women in my life, I hear from clients that I work with in my day job. You know, I hear from listeners to the show. Sometimes we're at phases of our life, where we struggle to even remember who we are and what our values are, what would be a prompt that you could offer to a listener who might be having that thought right now.
Speaker 1 26:05
Yeah, well, first off, you're so fucking normal. Like, welcome to The Club, because so many of us when we're in pain, this is a very
Katie Fogarty 26:11
crowded clubs. Yes, are very crowded club, sir.
Speaker 1 26:16
Yeah, no, totally. In fact, that's the reason why I wrote this book, because I hate like, I shouldn't say hate. That's a very strong word. My mother says, we only use hate for Hitler, I guess because I'm a Jew from New York. But I so deeply loathe when people turn around to me and say, just do whatever will make you happy. Like a it's that friggin easy. And like be I know, like, I would be doing it. Thank you. So exactly.
Katie Fogarty 26:43
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 26:44
Yes, advice. Yeah. So what I tell people is a welcome to The Club. Be start where it hurts. Start where it hurts. We are trained and taught to avoid our pain on so many different levels. We are taught to ignore our difficult feelings. We're taught to anesthetize it with foods, drugs, phones, Doom, scrolling on Instagram, whatever, we are taught to do everything other than listen to our actual selves, you do not need to have any freaking idea of who your ultimate EU is, in order for you to start by being really honest and saying what is hurting me right now. And sometimes just doing that is incredibly hard. But that moment of reckoning, where you are actually honest with yourself and say, this is hurting me, will change your entire life. And your ability to do that will get better as you as you get better at doing what I say is asking, answering and taking action. So this is when like I play like juveniles back that adds up. And I say you don't have to move forward by walking towards a clear goal. In fact, I don't recommend you do because I think that goals are worship, I do recommend that you start wiggling your way forward by removing the things that hurt you in your life. And that can be plenty hard. But that that is where you start your pain is a flashlight. And if you just start with a willingness to see where it hurts and take some sort of action from that, then you will start to move forward eventually. So like for me, for example, I tell the story very openly because a lot of my growth I frame in the context of romantic relationships. But like, I always just really wanted healthy intimacy. And I was in my mid late 30s. And all of my friends were married and had kids and like doing all that stuff. And I was just getting laid again and again and again. And I felt like my life was passing me by. And what I had to see and realize was that I was the only commonality in all of the casual sex that I was having. So I had to say, what's really hurting me right now. My lack of intimacy, and what's causing my lack of intimacy, casual sex. That's all I knew. I didn't have a single fucking clue on how to have a healthy relationship, how to how to how to not bang when I was feeling insecure, right? But I knew that that was hurting me. That was what hurt. So if I did nothing else, but stop doing that, then eventually I was going to learn something new. I mean, I might have like a panic attack or a meltdown before that happened. But if I let myself sit in all those awkward, sticky, icky feelings of surrendering that comes when you stop doing something that's incredibly familiar Are but incredibly, you know, not self loving for you. And in that raw space between finding a new solution, and if I just sort of made a home in there without trying to escape or run or hide or anesthetized or cover up, I think you're eventually I'd frickin learn something new. And I did, it created space for me to find new tools.
Katie Fogarty 30:24
And, sir, as you were sharing the story, I was flipping through your book, which I hold in my hand, because I know from reading chapter two, it's I see it's on page 20 on 21. Now, you actually the book is called Soul archaeology because in part, you're like chiseling through these different layers and levels. And the the example that you just shared is something that you put in almost like, I don't know, like a like a flowchart where you are planning like I started here, I started feeling always invisible and romantic relationships. And you go through like seven to 10 Different learnings or realizations, where you finally emerge by saying that, you know, I need to practice boundaries and express my feelings safely in the context of a healthy relationship. And you had to you had to go through different iterations of this, where you started to get to where you wanted to end and be, and then use that as your sort of, I don't know, I don't want to say measuring stick. But as your as your Northstar for like, this is how this is what I'm holding in front of me as the way I want to be and live my life. I just, there are so many wonderful prompts in this book. That I think, you know, it's such a beautiful offering to people who are looking to do this discovery, you also have a chapter about being radically honest, you know, we just talked about one of the stories, what are some other examples that you would use for listeners to maybe employ to their own lives about examine examining their own situations with more radical honesty? Because that's radical honesty is, you know, it's a heavy lift when you're when you're a beginner.
Speaker 1 32:01
Yeah, no, it is. Okay, so So first off, I, I want to let people know that the reason that I call this book soul archaeology, is because when you get to that point of feeling and pain in life, and everything sort of hurts, you want an answer, and you want your fix right away, like you will do whatever it takes to relieve the pain, and oftentimes that that means some sort of surface level Band Aid, right, which we think is going to be the magic fix. And it isn't. The idea of soul archaeology is that we can only dig ourselves one layer at a time, we can only see what we see one layer at a time. So we start on the surface by acknowledging Yeah, I don't know that I'm I don't know that I'm feeling the way I want to feel. And if we keep digging one layer of our truth at a time, eventually, we will uncover our ultimate you, we will uncover what is really true about us, and not what is covered in the dust and debris of other people's shit, or our own choices, or the false core beliefs that we learned when we were kids. And we were just trying to feel loved and safe. That somehow became how we defined ourselves for decades and decades, right? We can only see our ship one layer at a time. And that's good. That's, that's beautiful. That's all we need to do. But incredibly important pieces of this step out are doing things like being responsible for seeing how you have self abandoned in life.
Katie Fogarty 33:44
And when you see yourself abandoned, Sara, can you can you expand on that a little bit?
Speaker 1 33:48
Yeah, so it colloquially and in a not cool way, I say all the ways we've talked blocked our own self love. But what I mean when I say that is when we self abandon, we are given a choice in real time to either serve our needs and serve our ultimate you or not. And so many times in life, we trade ourselves for other people's comfort. So whether it's people pleasing, or ignoring hard feelings, or telling ourselves stuff doesn't matter when it dies, or giving up hobbies or things that we love, because other people will won't accept us if we do that or hiding our truth. Maybe you're super kinky and your partner is super vanilla and you feel like if you tell them the dirty things that you want to do that they'll think you're a whore and they'll never want to touch you but you live with pain, right? All of these times that you trade away little pieces of yourself and your truth in order to keep stasis in order to keep things calm. So how have you self abandon? in your own life, and I am in like an Olympic gold medal winning South abandoners. So I dare Now listen, you guys, if you are not somebody that's interested in gritty vulnerability, don't read this book because I frickin go there. Like, I'm not a superhero or super therapist or anything, but I am a woman who is willing to tell you about my shit, so that you feel safe in yours. So the we have an entire chapter on self abandonment and about being willing to see how you either consciously or subconsciously, and most of the times through no fault of your own, because that's how you learned to feel safe, right? We don't blame ourselves, when we see what we see, we just fucking see it. And we and we open up the curtains. That's such an easy learning to Sunshine,
Katie Fogarty 35:47
I think that's such an important distinction between like recognizing, where we're not doing the things we want to be doing and not beating ourselves up over them. And that's something I love about your book is that it allows you to become a better version of yourself, or maybe your your ultimate version of yourself, but also to be kind to your current self. Because we are asked to continuously work in progress and works in project. And if we beat ourselves up for needing things to be different or feeling shame about things in our past, then we really limit our ability to treat ourselves with the respect that we need in order to move to move forward
Speaker 1 36:28
cannot create, you cannot create long term change and self love built on the shame and the weight of your own perceived mistakes. So part of the big thing is once you start to see all your shit, because everybody has it, right? Once you start to see it, you also have to learn how to how to either let it go or carry it. So it's not that heavy. You've got to learn how to forgive yourself so that these pieces of you they just exist, they just don't press down on you. You don't have to carry them, you just sort of let them be true,
Katie Fogarty 37:04
do you and then I hate making gendered assumptions. But this show is largely listened to by women. And you know, most of the I'm a woman, most of the, you know, people that after me closest to in my life are women. And I have been in addition to doing this podcast I've been doing, like sort of curating an Instagram community, it's really opt in where people share their age out loud stories. And one of the questions that's a prompt, when you submit your materials to have your story featured is what have you let go of a mid life. And I'm telling you nine times out of 10 somebody is saying I let go of trying to please other people and in caring what other people think. And you know, this is a very informal poll, but it's it never fails to surprise me or just I'm constantly surprised, I guess that, that so many women find themselves in this situation where they measure themselves and they feel like they're coming up short, and that they have dedicated years and maybe decades of their life trying to meet other people's expectations rather than their own. Does this happen to men? I mean, I know your audience is largely women. What's your thinking on this?
Speaker 1 38:23
I mean, I'm sure it does. I think it probably happens a lot more with women. Look, I think all people can can be people pleasers, right. But I think as women in particular, we are raised to seek external clues for our validation, right we're taught to be kind and aware and and to fit in boxes, whereas boys are sort of more encouraged to create their own boxes. And again, I'm not a data expert here at all. But I do think it's you know, it's it's probably a burden that more women carry especially when those women don't feel like they color in the lines of who they're supposed to be right. The amount of of women who are who are plus eyes who feel even more responsible for hiding themselves and unattainable levels of perfection and people pleasing in order to not be seen not be noticed not rock the waves not have you noticed their size. I mean, that should come define you your entire life. Like when I tell you that I went through decades, like three decades, or like over 30 years before I realized that I literally did not have self esteem. I had a perception of myself as I related to everybody else. I had my definition of worth as I related to my mom, my dad, my work whatever man it was I was really trying to like get feedback from But I had truly no idea who I was for me. And from what I hear, that was a skill that I was cultivating as a child, right that the need to people please and use other people's feedback for my own data was subconsciously, something I was taught as a kid. And by the way, my parents were awesome, amazing loving people, but you know, but even the most awesome, amazing level loving people can teach their kids things without without intentionally realizing that. So I'm sure it happens to men a lot, but I think it colors itself differently,
Katie Fogarty 40:40
I've started to think that so much of this is really rooted in capitalism, which sounds like, this is like a weird, you know, hard left that I'm taking here. But, you know, this, we could talk about notions of beauty and we could talk about the way you're supposed to behave in the world and, but I think a lot of it is rooted in is trying to sell you something. And, you know, when when I, when I look now at when I look backwards about the way I feel about myself in my body, it was like, it's magazines, it's, you know, the monetizing, there's a lot of money to be made by monetizing people's insecurity. And I think our you were saying you were raised by loving Senate parents, but when you're raised in this very sort of capitalist society, it makes it hard, it makes it harder to to it's kind of like oxygen or water, it's like, all around you. It's hard to it's hard to ignore unless you sort of move through life with like horse blinders on, or are you sort of emerge in a different phase of your life where you like, take your own blinders off and say, this is this is not how I feel or what I believe, but it's, it's tricky. I don't know. I mean, I, I've said this on the show. And
Speaker 1 41:54
I think you're right, you're you're right, because by the way, there are incredible teachers out there. And I can help point your readers, your followers listeners towards them, that talks about the relationship between capitalism and wellness, and all that stuff. I mean, these are, these are big things. So your, your gut instinct is incredibly correct. But it's also important to recognize that we're not taught to critically think for ourselves. And we can have a level of responsibility for the relationship that we do have with capitalism, like if, if we can't change the structure ourselves, how can we change our relationship to the structure? Yep.
Katie Fogarty 42:38
It's like the 100% responsibility for like, that's another thing that I've talked about a little bit on the show chair, it's like having 100% responsibility for your own happiness. And when I say that, I don't mean that you don't rely on other people, or that you don't embed yourselves in families or communities or networks of friends. You know, I believe in all of that, but get into midlife has taught me that I'm 100% percent responsible for my own happiness and my own interests and my own sense of purpose, and that people don't come along and do that for you, you have to do it for yourself. And it's been, you know, like I said, you know, it's like the good and the bad news. You know, the ultimate you is a continuous work in progress. And it's something that your book offers so many wonderful tools for I wish that we could explore every single one of the chapters, I'm going to encourage anybody who's been intrigued by, you know, snippets of this conversation or are looking for tools in your own life, who want to understand more of Sarah's story, the book offers just so many wonderful resources. And I would direct you to soul archeology, a totally doable approach to creating a self loving and liberated life as an incredible resource. Sara, we're going to be moving into our speed round, because our time together is coming to a close. I'm ready, but bring it before we actually jump into I'm just gonna say I had the opportunity to do a quick pre call with Sarah before the show. And it was so fun to learn that even though she is a fan of cowboy boots, and now lives in Las Vegas that she grew up in New York, we probably walked by each other on city streets at some point, even though we're different ages in different neighborhoods, and it's always so much fun to connect with the New Yorker. And it's just wonderful to learn a little bit more about you so thank you.
Speaker 1 44:25
I have a confession and that I immediately felt comfortable with you right away. I'm sure that sounds dorky and I'm okay with that. My ultimate you embraces her dorkiness by and immediately liked you. Oh, kind of like wanted to fist bump you and call the Union Square Greenmarket and like have the Amish Pretzel Guy. Oh my god, I
Katie Fogarty 44:52
love it. Well, let's make it a day. Let's make it a day. I would love to do that. That would be so much fun. And that's like Actually one of the great joys of doing this podcast and I think being elusive midlife for me is that there's, you don't even know the internet like Instagram can be weird and social media has, you know, got its ups and downs and we're not diving into that now. It's been such a lovely way of connecting with people of, I don't know, just sort of being exposed to interesting ideas and different voices and, and just, I don't know, midlife has given me a sense of community. It's not Middle School, it's been Life School. And it's so much, you know, cooler and more open and loving and warm. And so I'm delighted that we're connected and I'm so grateful for your time
Speaker 1 45:35
you can sit with us, it's like at the lunch table as
Katie Fogarty 45:40
you can see with us my my daughter goes to a camp that starts with the letter C and they always say it's an open circle and that's their policy everyone's included in the circle. So I love that midlife is an open circle. If you if you if you're not experiencing that in your own midlife there are there are ways in people's in groups and communities that want you Sarah wants you I want you so welcome to our midlife circle in our midlife table.
Speaker 1 46:05
Okay, and at this circle and table, we have really great snacks. Yes,
Katie Fogarty 46:09
of course, we'd like snacks the best. All right, let's do this. Let's do this speed round. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 46:15
I'm ready. Bring it riding soul
Katie Fogarty 46:17
archeology was
Speaker 1 46:21
holy effing shit. cathartic, cathartic, cathartic, guys? Yes,
Katie Fogarty 46:27
I know you have a well developed self love checklist. I've seen it in your book, and I've seen it on some of your social media materials. What's the number one item you that you do on that list without fail each week? Sleep? What's an item on your self love checklist that future you wants to get to at some point?
Speaker 1 46:49
taking time off. Yes. I feel that Yes. That's being being not connected to an electronic device. Yes. Yeah.
Katie Fogarty 46:57
That's a good goal. Okay, you are a New Yorker living in Vegas. What's the best thing about living out west?
Unknown Speaker 47:08
Ah, I'll go with cost of living.
Katie Fogarty 47:11
Okay, guys, I bet cost of living I bet. All right. So in our pre call, we were talking about the speed round and Sarah was reminding me about the Actor's Studio, so I went and dug up some of their questions. I did. What is your favorite word? Curious. Furious.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
Curious. Curious. Curious.
Katie Fogarty 47:33
Got it.
Speaker 1 47:34
What's your least really fun to say? Curious?
Katie Fogarty 47:37
Curious. What's your most used word? I'm making this one up. buck, buck. That's what is your least favorite word?
Speaker 1 47:45
I'm sorry. My least favorite word. Surrender.
Katie Fogarty 47:51
Ah, okay. What sound or noise Do you love?
Speaker 1 47:58
I love the outdoors without a single sound of Metropolitan noise pollution.
Katie Fogarty 48:08
I love it. Okay, that makes sense. And the reason why I'm asking Sarah these questions is she shared with me she can still remember watching the actor studio Inside the Actors Studio and hearing Kathy Bates say her favorite sound was out of her dog eating Cheetos. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1 48:23
Because I'm not obsessed with their dog crunching on thing. I'll
Katie Fogarty 48:27
never forget that. That's so hilarious. Okay. Finally your one word answer to complete this sentence as I age I feel awake. Awake. That is awesome. I feel awake too. That's great. Thank you Sarah before we say goodbye How can our listeners find you learn more about your events your programming your writing and of course soul archaeology.
Speaker 1 48:52
Well, thank you so much. Guys. If you want to find me the best way to do so is on my website at Sarah support comm Sa ra h s a p o ra.com. And you can find all of the stuff that you could possibly need there and hopefully more that you never knew you wanted because I'm like a fun little surprise.
Katie Fogarty 49:13
I love it. I love it. Love all those are going in the show notes when I find swearing to finally update them. I've had a few listeners reach out to me to say where's the show notes for episode blah. And that's on my August to do lists. So I'll be back to school with all the show notes updated. Thank you so much, Sarah. This wraps a certain age you're welcome. This wraps a certain age a show for women who are aging without apology. Want more of a certain age, sign up for our newsletter age boldly over on our website a certain age pod.com or follow us on Instagram at a certain age pod. We share bonus content giveaways links and midlife resources come hang out. Special thanks to Michael Mann Seanie who composed and produced our theme music See you next time and until then age boldly beauties.