Secrets to Great Midlife Sex with Dr. Susan Hardwick-Smith, Author of ‘Sexually Woke’
Show Snapshot:
Want great midlife sex? Or do you think low libido and a lackluster sex life are simply a natural part of aging? Meet Dr. Susan Hardwick-Smith, who is about to blow your mind with three simple, doable secrets to great sex at 40, 50, 60 and beyond. If your sex life and libido need a jumpstart, if you are in a new relationship, or crave a more connected and vibrant sex life with your long-term partner, or if you simply want more sizzle, this show is for you!
Show Links:
Follow Dr. Hardwick-Smith
Dr. Hardwick’s Book: Sexually Woke: Awaken the Secrets to Your Best Sex Life in Midlife & Beyond
Quotable:
Intimacy is not isolated from the way we feel about the world in general. In fact, they're so connected. When we feel happy, optimistic, open, curious —think about what that does in the bedroom.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to a certain age a show for women who are unafraid to age out loud beauties. I've recorded 145 episodes of a certain age pod. I'm coming up on year three. The most downloaded episode year one was on sex and midlife intimacy The show is still in my top five most popular episodes. And this does not surprise me one bit, not one bit because we're 40 5060 not dead. And because sexy and sex and intimacy has no expiration date. My guest today is a big believer that you can have the best sex of your life at 4555 65 and beyond. Dr. Susan Hardwick Smith is a gynecologist, the founder of the complete midlife Wellness Center and the author of the book sexually woke awaken the secrets to your best sex life in midlife and beyond. I mean, come on, we are in for a fab show. If your sex life and libido need a jumpstart if you are in a new relationship, or crave a more connected and vibrant sex life with your long term partner, or if you simply want more sizzle stick around this show is for you. welcome Susan,
Speaker 1 1:14
though glad to be here. What a lovely introduction. And it is such a fantastic time to optimize our sex life. So I cannot wait to chat about this with you.
Katie Fogarty 1:24
I am thrilled. I mean, I know this is going to be a popular show. I've done other shows on topics related to midlife intimacy, they always really perform well people download it because women want tools, you know, we want to feel great, we want a vibrant sex life. I've been following you on Instagram I've you know I'm familiar with your work, your teaching your coaching your book, your philosophy, and I'm so excited to explore this all with you. But I wanted to start off just by asking you I know you've had a long medical career obviously in women's sexual health and wellness, which obviously informed your books actually work but a personal story also informs the creation of this book as well. Can you share with your listeners what made you sit down in your busy schedule and write sexually woke?
Speaker 1 2:11
Well, I really came out of my own what we used to call a midlife crisis right now we call it a midlife awakening or something like that, right? So I'm 56 and in my mid 40s, I was practicing regular OB Gen, as we do was fantastic job. It was a fantastic time in my life delivering babies doing hysterectomy is all the things that we do, very, very little to do with sexuality. And many of your listeners have well aware that the average gynecologist knows very little about sexuality. We're not taught anything about that in medical school or even residency. And so unfortunately, when we go to our experts expecting them to be a wealth of knowledge, often we feel very dismissed or very there's a such a gap and that education, and I was living in that gap. My personal life I was in a long marriage where my sex life was dull to say the least, and sort of became almost absent. And I just really wanted something more there was a part of me that knew that there was something else out there. And so I decided to change careers. I got so excited about the topic that I retired from general OB Gen, and went into full time now what I've been doing for the past 10 years, just working with midlife, women's wellness as specifically around sexuality, hormone replacement, living your best life in the second half of life. And it's been such an adventure for myself. Honestly, it grew out of wanting to have that for myself. And then I figured if I can learn it myself, I can teach it to other people. And so that's how the book developed and how this practice develop it. I think like many of us in our mid 40s just came from a place of just a deep yearning for something more, I just knew there was more and I didn't want to live the rest of my life without it. And working with patients who've also found this way to live in a fuller, more intimate, connected ways. It's been so joyful. So I'm just delighted to be able to share that with you.
Katie Fogarty 4:15
Well, I'm delighted to thank you so much for sharing your story, this notion of wanting more, it's just is a theme that that surfaces again and again on the show in all areas of our lives. And your book is a great resource. I know that you open it by starting with some stage setting you do myth busting in your book, especially around the idea that you know, quote unquote, what makes a normal sex life and that you share that many of your patients many of the women in your life think of vanishing sex life and low libido is normal. As we age is this perception Fact or Fiction?
Speaker 1 4:48
Yeah, so I'd really love to differentiate the words normal and optimal because if normal means average and what most people have, it's absolutely normal to have a waning so Next life in our mid life. So the study that led to the book actually was so much fun. So what led to the study was, you know, I'm practicing OB Gen, and I have a very low sex drive myself. And I'm at that time talking to hundreds of patients who are telling you the same story. So they'd come in and say, Hey, Dr. Susan, you know, my sex drive isn't very good. I'm really not interested in sex. It's harder to have an orgasm, I, you know, I'm feeling disconnected from my partner. And at the time, I said, Hey, you know what, me too. It's, it's normal. We all feel like this in our mid 40s. And that was my story. And then I occasionally would meet a woman who would come in, and she told me all about this fantastic sex life she had, and maybe it was with a new partner, or maybe she'd been married for 30 years. She was telling me stories about all these fun things they'd been doing in the weekend, and I realized I wanted to be more like her. So I set up a study to try to find these women. And I did actually find these women we collectively called them the sexually woke that was actually a term that one of the interviewees applied to herself, which I thought was quite cute. But they coming back to your question, only 7% of the women who were interviewed in this 45 to 65 group, fit that criteria to be in this sexually woke group, meaning 93% didn't, and I don't want that does sound disappointing, more hopeful that, hey, 7% of people can have this. So you can have it too. It's teachable. But going back to your question, is it normal? Well, yeah, 93% of women feel that way. So yes, it's normal, but not optimal. So you could also say that 85% of American women are overweight, and that's normal, but not optimal. So I look at it like that. It's a health hazard, you know, having I have personally experienced like having a diminished sexual life and sexual intimacy, even if we're single, really affects our health, our mental health and our physical health. I mean, it's, it's a part of our holistic well being, and it's so important, in my opinion, for health care providers to address it just like we would your blood pressure or any other thing that's not optimal. So yes, it's normal, but not optimal.
Katie Fogarty 7:25
That's such an important distinction that this notion of normal versus optimal, and I can, you know, let's talk about how this 7% who have more of the optimal healthy sort of vibrant, engaged sex life, and I know, when you spend time with these patients that you learn from them, you know, this, you know, we call them secrets, but are these teachable moments, that's another great word that you learn that you just use this third teachable moments that can help us figure out how to have an amazing sex life, our age, if you could just sort of share that like a quick top line overview of what each of these three main areas aren't, because I want to explore each one of them a little bit more in depth as we move throughout the show.
Speaker 1 8:06
It was so interesting, because, you know, we saw I have a research group, and we had 1000s of pieces of data. And our goal was to try to isolate what these women had in common. So first of all, we isolated the women who answered positively a number of ways to this very extensive survey, and then looked at that data to try to determine what they might have in common. And what they had in common were things that seem so simple, you're right, they're not secrets. And when I tell you what they are, they might seem very obvious yet. Most of us are not doing them. And there are things that we can do, they're free, they're easy, they don't take much time, they just take a shift in mindset and a real commitment to making it intentional. So brief overview. And, you know, I put them into three categories, honestly, could have made ton, but you know, we just to narrow it down. The first one was having an attitude of being open to possibility, which, you know, that sounds a bit vague. But when I interviewed these women, each of them shared an attitude and the way that they spoke and felt about life in general, and also about sex and everything else with openness, optimism, a feeling that things are getting better, that there's more to come with curiosity. And when I'm talking to you, even though we're not on video, that hand opening type gesture, like everybody had different metaphors, but they were quite similar things like a feeling like I was coming out of my shell or that I've let myself out of a prison or that I'm walking into this open space, have fun and play in my life. And if I'm walking into an open space, have fun and play optimism, curiosity. That is A great setup to have a fantastic intimate experience. So without that, it seems to be quite difficult. So it was a mindset of openness to possibility which showed up in so many ways. And the book actually has some really funny, just delightful stories about the way these women experienced that and how that correlated to their intimate life. Because, you know, intimacy is not isolated from the way we feel about the world in general. In fact, they're so connected, you know, when we feel happy, optimistic, open, curious. Think about what that does in the bedroom. Right. So, and, and other factors, other fields of our lives, too, right. So that was number one. This attitude of openness allows ability, opposite to the more common idea around midlife. So I'm about to be an empty nester and about a month, and I'm surrounded by a lot of other women in the same stage of life. Commonly, there's an attitude of just the end of everything. No, the best is in the past, nothing good is going to happen anymore. It's kind of downhill to the grave. No, no, maybe not. Right. So looking looking at it from a different lens. So that was number one. Number two, again, might sound so obvious, but the chapter title is know yourself first. So each of these women had a really high degree of self awareness. And that is not only psychological self awareness, although each of them had done a lot of work. And were continuing to do a lot of work in whatever spiritual tradition they were involved in, or whatever psychological model, they found interesting, just continuously learning more about the way they tick so they could understand their feelings and their emotions and their reactions, and how to respond and communicate in a healthy kind manner, which directly impacts our intimate life. And they knew their body. So 100% of these women in the 7% group, were very comfortable with self pleasure with explaining to a partner what feels good with trying new things, and not being stuck and just doing the same old thing. They knew what felt good, they were happy to communicate it, they were comfortable talking about it. In simple sentences, like very simple things like I like it when you do that, can we do more of this? Or how can we try this like in a very positive, fun, not an elephant in the room type way. So just learning to communicate in a way that's fun, open, not threatening. And knowing yourself, like touch me like this. I love it when you do that. That was so beautiful to see and so many stories around how that had led to just fun, fun and games and silly things. Maybe you go to a restaurant and you give your underwear under the table to your partner. And he has to sit there the whole time just just sweating it out till you get home. It just oh my god,
Katie Fogarty 13:15
I'm dying. That's so funny.
Speaker 1 13:16
I did that actually one of my story, I'm like, No, my great idea. And she she'd been married for 30 years, they were just going out to dinner and she thought that'd be fun. I mean,
Katie Fogarty 13:26
I'm literally trying to like I'm trying to figure out how I can incorporate this into my this is cracking me up.
Unknown Speaker 13:31
This is crazy. You know,
Katie Fogarty 13:33
so people are listening who take this on definitely need to DM me and let me know how it goes. Because I love that. But it is very fun and playful. And it's why I mean, it's very concrete suggestion to
Speaker 1 13:44
me or many other things like that, right. So my thought which I had never done any of those things. Why not?
Katie Fogarty 13:51
Why not? Exactly why not? Like what what do
Speaker 1 13:54
we have to lose? Like I cannot imagine a scenario where that type of expression of playfulness and love and just you know if somebody hands me and also novelty
Katie Fogarty 14:05
which is which is so fun. And so you know, like Section A it's actually be fun. And you know, maybe that's maybe that assassin is not fun, cheap, but there are others and that your book is sort of peppered with them. Susan, I know we said we're going to do the one two and three but we are running into an ad break. So when we come back yeah, we'll do number we're going to do number three, so everyone needs to stay tuned because you know number three, number two was so awesome. You know number three is going to be great. We'll be back after this break. Susan, we're back from the break. We had some very fun and flirty suggestions when you talked about number two is sort of knowing yourself and and expressing yourself in ways that are playful and joyful and intimate with a partner. So what's number three?
Speaker 1 14:46
So number three, I called attention with an A attention and intention, which are slightly different, similar, but each of these women really had me made the relationship intentional. So I'll just separate those things a little bit. So attention I define as where we direct our mind. Right. So might be something very small. So I one of the lovely things, for example, was having a ritual around coming and going. So when you say goodbye, and when he comes home or she comes home, a ritual that might take five seconds like a my sexy person, how was your day, a little pinch on the bottom or whatever works for you just a moment of, I see you, I love you. I got you. I sexy, and great to see you. And that could literally take two seconds because we're busy. Rather than I my marriage, which ended around that same time. What's for dinner? And did you pay the bills and who's taking out the trash, just just not that moment of recognizing, okay, you're a human being in front of me, I love you. Our intimacy is important, and I were busy, but I got you. And then same when you're leaving, have a great day. I mean, look me in the eyes and say, I truly hope you have a great day, I cannot wait to see you at the end of the day. Very, very simple. Free takes two seconds. So attention like putting putting our mind in a place that's positive. And you know, there's so much literature about, you know, where attention goes, energy flows, right? If we place our attention on positive things, and nurturing the relationship, energy is going to flow that way. And that leads to intimacy. Because if somebody's coming home and patting me on the head, and give me a little pinch on the bottom, and I don't mean to be sexist, now I know my relationship, whatever works for you. I want to have sex with that person. That's fun. That's cute. I know, this is someone that cares about me and I want to be close to them. And then the the intentionality part is more of a long term commitment to making this important. Like, I'm going to think about it, we're going to put plans together, maybe planning what we're going to do for our vacation or sitting down and spending five minutes to intentionally work on making this the best it can be for both of us. So in other words, not just letting it happen on its own. Because I can say, after a long marriage, I was married, like many of us in our 20s and didn't know much. Not very wise. I thought marriages just sort of happened. And you just got wiser by nature of getting years added to your belt. That is not the case. I mean, it really takes time, and attention. And so it's beautiful stories about the way these women, the interviews were with women paid attention. And we're very intentional about making that relationship as good as it could be. And I could tell you this, like one very simple story not to make it such a big deal. One of the guests, for example, said, I asked her what her secret was, she'd been married for over 30 years and had a fantastic sex life. And she said, here's what you got to do. Just find out the five things that your partner likes, and just give it to him. I thought Well, that's easy, right? Simple. Why don't we do that. Now, of course, we don't want to do things that cross our boundaries, I'm not talking about doing anything that makes you uncomfortable. And her case it was he likes a certain type of coffee. And he really likes this kind of bacon. And he likes a certain type of oral sex once a week. And I'm happy to do that for him. And it makes him happy. And then I'm happy and we're happy. Very simple. But for some reason, you know, our normal human defensiveness sometimes sets up walls where we don't want to give like it almost like there's not enough here, like especially many of us who are living in this common state in our culture of not enoughness you know, if I don't have enough here, because I'm not enough, I don't have enough to give. And so generosity becomes very tight and transactional. But just moving out of that space and being in a place of abundance where we can give and be generous and we're not losing anything. Maybe sexual encounters like hey, you know what, sweetheart? Tonight? It's all about you. We're just gonna do you nuts has nothing to do with me. This is all for you tonight, pure generosity, and approaching intimacy from a point of this, this was a game changer for me. Learning that sex or intimacy is an act of generosity. And we may all know that in some way, but I was not approaching it that way. Yes, I would do this for you. But you know, there was a trade right? It wasn't a free generous activity. And and we know this right when when we're coming from a place of abundance and just being freely generous, that we get such pleasure from that And we also get it back again, of course. So I think that that was a really, it's a real game changer for me. So now I approach it that way, and I, my sex life is so much better than when it was transactional,
Katie Fogarty 20:12
I thank you for sharing that it's so my brain is bubbling and percolating with all these ideas, and, and I really feel like I need to the bare minimum step up my goodbye game. Like, even like some, like, I don't have a ritual and I you know, sometimes I'm like dropping at the train. And it's like a hurried peck on the cheek or, like, you know, or like a glare as I'm sending him out the door, because I'm annoyed about something. And I think this, this sort of notion that the bedrock of intimacy and just sort of sexual health is, is to really let your partner, your husband, your wife, whoever your intimate partner is feel seen and acknowledged, and it's such a, you know, it's so important, you know, everyone wants to feel seen in every aspect of their life and in every relationship, and it's, but I think we forget, sometimes we think sex is like, you know, great sex is like sex toys, or like spicy lingerie, and, and really, the foundation of it is connecting with another human, to enjoy things together. So yeah, and
Speaker 1 21:16
there's different kinds of sex, right. And so most of us have had, I mean, you can have really fun sex with a stranger or a toy. And that's pleasurable. But the the next level is what I would call, in my opinion, optimal, you know, and not to judge anyone's sex life, everybody has different wishes and desires. For me. That's fun, right? But having sex from a place of true connection is just magical. And we can have that, even if we're alone. I mean, so we could talk about that, too. I mean, connection with another person is fantastic. But, you know, just deeply connecting with yourself. And this, this act of having an orgasm is really pleasurable and fun. But, you know, that's all it is. And that's good and creates oxytocin. There's a lot of goodness in that too. But I agree with you, you know, marriages and relationships, and because we feel not seen, not heard, not validated. So tiny things like that. So not to sound morbid, but I actually took that, and I have with my kids and with my partner, develop this system, where when I say goodbye, I want it to be enough that if I never see you again, I'm not going to have any regrets. Yeah, you never know.
Katie Fogarty 22:42
Every, you know, no day is no day like, No, tomorrow is promised. And, and we want to try.
Speaker 1 22:48
I mean, if I'm in a, you know, if we're in a disagreement, and I have them leave in a huff, you know, what if that's the last time we see each other, so even if we're in a disagreement, you know, you you could try this, and I've tried it, it's not easy. If it's in the middle of some tension, just to stop for a second and say, you know, I know, we've got some more work to do around this, but I love you, I see you. We know, we're good. And we'll, we'll talk about this some more tonight. But I love you, I really hope you have a good day, even if it's in the middle of tension and to be able to be the person who goes first. I think, again, to avoid being sexist, that I might just put my foot in it, it's often going to be the woman who does that. Because, you know, stereotypically, it often is in our culture, that men may not be the ones who are going to make that very vulnerable step because it's a very vulnerable step, if you're in the middle of some conflict to just take a break from and say, Yes, we're Yes, I agree. We're in conflict, but I love you, I see you. I got you have a great day.
Katie Fogarty 23:52
Sometimes I like to think it's beyond just being a woman. And it's about being sort of mature and, you know, evolved because I have gotten to the phase of my life. And I'm 53 and I finally gotten to the phase of my life where I am, like, really trying to be 100% 100% responsible for myself. And so I'm not gonna sit here and stew in anger over something you've said, because I'm only punishing myself, you know, like, I can still really bring myself to the equation. And I feel like that's gotten easier in midlife. And so it's, you know, it's not simply maybe that a woman is, you know, sort of conditioned or just sort of, you know, has has the EQ to to go first and to be generous. But it's also because we have the wisdom to realize we want to behave in ways that make us happy, and being generous and forgiving. For many of us is key. Oh,
Speaker 1 24:41
you're so right. And again, that's a gigantic search. I
Katie Fogarty 24:44
think I think we're saying the same thing. I think we're saying the same
Speaker 1 24:48
thing talking to an audience of man, I would say go first as well as just go first because it's for Yeah, it's for you.
Katie Fogarty 24:54
It's for you. So you,
Speaker 1 24:56
I love that, you know the idea that we've all heard that anger is just putting out rat poison and then eating it yourself. Right? I
Katie Fogarty 25:04
sometimes use the analogy of like holding a lump of hot coal. It's only burning yourself like, you are suffering. Yes, you're hanging on to rage because I've done that, too. I mean, I'm not saying I'm completely evolved, but I'm like working on it.
Unknown Speaker 25:16
Oh, no, I, Susan, I want it. I wanted it yesterday. And then
Katie Fogarty 25:20
you go, you let Well good for you. Oh, that's that's not easy to do. But we you know, we can do hard things that's getting a bit life teaches us that I do want to explore this notion of being single in a minute, because I feel like sometimes I like bring the lens of I'm in a long term relationship I've been married for, you know, coming up on, I don't know, 2530 years with my husband. And my math is poor right now, because I need another cup of coffee. But we've been married for a while. And so I often talk about marriage and relationships and partner relationships. But not all my listeners are partnered off. And so I want to make sure we start with single and then maybe talk a little bit about new relationships and long term relationships. But I do want to start by saying there's a quote that I pulled out of your book, which was in I think, the first chapter, which I really liked, and you say, quote, If women aged 40, to 65, and older can have the joyful sex, sexual energy of a 22 year old, then clearly nothing is gone. It's just hidden. And that means we have to find it. And I think that's such an optimistic attitude, you know, that, even if we're not experiencing it, right now, it's accessible to us. And we can have joyful sexual energy. So let's talk about women who are single, how do you have this joyful sexual energy for yourself, even if you're not in a partnered relationship.
Speaker 1 26:38
So being single is such a wonderful opportunity, I had the chance to experiment with that after I got divorced in my mid 40s. And it's an incredibly ripe time to be able to experience this openness to possibility idea, for example, because some of us who were in marriages that didn't, or long term relationships that were not ultimately satisfying, very difficult to have that openness to possibility mindset, because things can feel very closed in and dark. And, you know, without much optimism, so becoming single or being single is a playground for doing anything you want to so what an amazing opportunity to experiment with these things with yourself. So again, what an opportunity to really learn to know yourself to experiment with what makes you feel good, experiment with different tools to help with communication, perhaps you're going to get into another relationship. And those are going to be tools that you can master and make this next relationship so much more fulfilling from what you've learned in the past. So the period of time of being single, I think, is magical. Because you know, we all know getting in one relationship and jumping to another. Generally we take those same problems with us, right? So what a fantastic time to heal and grow. And develop that self awareness so that we can communicate well about everything, including our sexuality, and really get to know your own body, do a lot of self pleasure, find some different techniques, you know, look at some of my videos or others about the anatomy of the clitoris and explore all the different erogenous zones that we have. I didn't know I'm a gynecologist. I didn't know the anatomy of the clitoris till I was 45. Believe it or not, we're not taught what it is crazy.
Katie Fogarty 28:30
It's astonishing. It's truly astonishing.
Speaker 1 28:32
It's truly it's not in anatomy textbook, right? It's crazy. And so I thought it was just a little part that you can see and most of your listeners know now it's a massive Oregon and their erogenous zones in places far from that one spot. So take and and, you know, most partners don't know that either. Because of gosh, if your gynecologist doesn't know, how's your husband supposed to know?
Katie Fogarty 28:56
Right? How's your how's your kind of your poor non clitoris owner going to know this? So where would where would a woman you know, I mean, what are some great resources? I mean, you know, are there books? Are there videos? I mean, you have some videos, but where else might a woman turn? If she's looking for fresh ideas about exploring her these different erogenous zones? Do you have resources I
Speaker 1 29:17
am sitting actually, as we're talking in my little library of books, and I was I forget the author, I think I bought every single book. I cannot recall the author, but I it's called the anatomy of women's sexual arousal. Okay. We could probably Google it really fast and find it. The Anatomy of women's sexual arousal is really fascinating. As a gynecologist, I found it fascinating. I'm like, really, I didn't. I mean, just it really is just fascinating. So if you want to learn about your own body, there are many books and that was a particularly good one. I think some of them are maybe less than scientifically accurate, but it's all good information. And then and then Just play with it and see what feels good. And I think I love that you asked about being single because to me that was the best opportunity that I had those few years to be able to set myself up to be in a really healthy relationship that I'm in now. And without that gap where I could have learned those lessons, I would have jumped into another relationship with the same lack of knowledge that I had before and more than likely, the same problems would have arisen. So you got one fantastic,
Katie Fogarty 30:34
wonderful guest on the show. Her name is Laura Friedman Williams and she wrote a terrific memoir, called available A Memoir of sex and dating after marriage ends. And she Chronicles in that the very initially painful dissolution of her 27 I think it was 27 year marriage, entered her college boyfriend, and then her sexual awakening when she, you know, she married the, the second man she ever slept with. And then she wound up having different sexual partners. Some are romantic partners, some is simply sexual partners, and she became so awakened to the fact that she, like, enjoyed her sex life, that she is unwilling to be in relationships now where she's not satisfied sexually as she had been in the past. And it was so wonderful and marvelous. It's a really fantastic read. She's a talented writer, it's so interesting. And I think it's just a great, you know, it's not a book about anatomy, by any means. But it's just a book about, you know, this sort of awakening that one can have, and you don't need to be a Shih Tzu was single in order to have some of this knowledge. But not everyone is single. So let's talk about somebody who's maybe moving into a new relationship. This could be somebody who's been perhaps single forever, but is now becoming partnered. I know that there's been we've done some shows on divorce where women feel sometimes it's hard, they feel scared about moving into new sexual relationships. So for somebody who does not want to be single, and who is beginning to be partnered up, is there a way that you recommend of creating this sort of sexual health and intimacy that you glean from talking to all the women who, you know, participated in your study?
Speaker 1 32:15
Oh, absolutely. And then from my own experience, too, I'll tell you, and I just want to back up I looked at it, the book is called women's anatomy of arousal. It's by Sherry, Winston, w i n s, t o n, women's anatomy of arousal, that's a great one. If you want to just check out everything to do with your clitoris, and all of the things that feel good. So, so just my story, I was married for a long time, similar, long, long time period of being single and sort of reevaluating everything and figuring out what I really wanted for my life. And then yes, it's scary. Like, you know, I've totally resonate with that you've had sex with the same person for 20 years, and now you're in your late 40s, and you've got some gray hair and some wrinkles where you didn't have them before. And the idea of getting naked with a stranger, it's very scary. And very exciting. I mean, so scary and exciting, are in the same continue. I'm just, just sure part of the same thing. But yeah, be very, I you know, I had some experiences that were not perfect, and was very careful to be clear on what I needed, and not to fall into the first thing that came along. And I think that's a good piece of wisdom, just to have some very clear boundaries about what you really want, maybe write them down, journal them go, go through that process, and have fun with whomever you meet. Everybody's amazing in different ways. But I personally had certain boundaries around what I really wanted for myself for the second half of life, and I was not going to compromise much. Of course, we always compromise in relationships, but wanting to have all of that. And I think that's very reasonable. And like the guests that you mentioned, yeah, we can also just stay single and enjoy the beautiful things that different individuals have to offer if nobody has the whole package. But you know, we could talk about the obvious things like being careful about not getting pregnant and getting STDs and getting all of those things that your listeners know all that already. I think I was most careful about not compromising. What I knew was right for my authentic self. Like I had a very clear knowledge because I done the work and I'm still doing it's not finished. That self awareness work, that that knowledge about where I'm going and what I want and not inviting someone to share my life that didn't have similar goals because you know, I've got another 40 years to live and I want to share that with someone who has similar goals and passions and so What an exciting opportunity to be finding people who can share this adventure with you. So being married for a long time is amazing if it works. So I
Katie Fogarty 35:12
love what you said too about this, this notion of knowing what your goals are, and being very clear about them. And I think that also maybe the the idea that people need to ask themselves, my goals might be different from when I first started, when I began a marriage where they began a relationship, a long term partner relationship, I thought I wanted something and now I know I want something else. I had another great guest, who came on the show, Tamsin Fidel, and my listeners are probably familiar with her. She's a, a TV journalist, but a really big menopause advocate. And she's written a couple of books about divorce. And she said that she realized, you know, what she wants, she's remarried after going through a divorce. And what she wanted in a partnership is completely different than what she wanted when she first got married. And sometimes I think that I've had conversations with women in my life that that we don't not everyone steps back and ask themselves what I want today. Because what you want today, what you want tomorrow may be vastly different than what you thought you wanted, you know, years ago. And so that's, I love that you're, oh, my goodness, I love that you echoed that. Just say like, I want something different i
Speaker 1 36:16
i have young adult children and goodness knows what they want right now is not what they're gonna want when they're 56. And so I when I look back at my life, and you and your listeners might resonate with this, as far as sexuality, I can, I can see several phases and everyone's are different. But say, for example, in my 20s, sex was about just having fun. It was honestly a lot about validating, am I pretty Am I beautiful. So I would have sex because it made me feel good about myself, like this guy thinks I'm attractive. Like there was a lot of selfishness in it not in a bad way. Everyone had fun, but immature, because I was in my 20s. And so it was having fun validating that I'm pretty, it was having a good time, not particularly experimental, because we're 20 didn't know much wasn't bad, and it was fun, and no one was harmed. But the goals and the intentions were very different than what they are now because you're not mature. And then in my 30s, in my case, it was about making babies. Sure I you know, got married, I married somebody because I wanted a good partner who would be a good provider and a good father and I was looking for the person who would make good babies with me that was that was a very reasonable thought for someone who was just thinking about procreation, because you know, we are still working from that biological mammal brain and that way, so pick the guy that was right for that goal. And he did make beautiful children with me and all of those things, he was excellent at that particular job. And then now, you know, as the kids that are older, really wanting a spiritual partner, and whatever spiritual tradition you have, or even if you're atheist, like a spiritual partner, meaning someone to share in just the fullness of life, and just enjoying life and enjoying connection with each other, and the universe in the world. And that is a whole different set of goals than the person that I would have chosen to procreate with. So I agree, I mean, if you if one is lucky enough to find someone who grows in the same way, that's fantastic, but many of us don't. And so I think this idea of having certain phases of not only sex, but just of relationships, like the person who is right for you in your 20s and 30s, might not be the right one for you in your 50s. And I don't think there's anything like
Katie Fogarty 38:40
Oh, I love I love the way you described it to and you know, these these sort of different chapters, it makes so much sense because we have different chapters in our career read different chapters as being a parent as a mom. Yeah, you know, everything, it makes sense that that would happen. So for those of us those, you know, for those of us who are in long term, committed relationships, which, you know, I put myself in the camp of that, and I'd love my husband and be met forever, you know, forever ago. I've said on the show before, and I'll say it again, I'm sure he would like to have more sex than we do. being totally honest. You know, but like, life is busy. And sometimes it's painful. And I feel like that has I've been managing that increasingly, with everything I've learned from this show. I've learned a lot about taking care of my body and the role of vaginal estrogen and HRT, and just being more honest about some of that stuff and like the power of an amazing lube. And so that's that's getting handled, what would you say to listeners who, who are looking to inject some novelty into their relationship or to kind of reawaken their sex life or what is the role of, I don't want to say outside influences because that makes it sound like it's bad. But outside tools, I guess, like a vaginal estrogen like an HRT like sex toys. How can these help women in midlife who might be struggling with some of the body changes that go along? Yeah,
Speaker 1 39:56
well, it's so I think sex is the ultimate mind. Mind and body connection thing, right? So first, we have to want to do it in our mind. And then we've got to have the anatomy that will support it being comfortable. And so as we get older, both of those things can change and from hormonal change. So I'm a big advocate of hormone replacement, I take estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, myself, and I plan to forever, I recommend it for almost all my patients with very few exceptions, because it's so helpful for just keeping the tissue healthy, that can support a healthy sex life. So if we have the desire to have sex, but it's going to be painful, of course, that's a mismatch, or if we have a healthy vagina, but we have no desire. Also, unhealthy mismatch. So addressing both of those, and you know, we can't ignore that our hormones change, and I don't think there's anything. Well, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with addressing that mean, arguably, we weren't designed to live past 50 years. And so this whole living past 50s only been something that's been common in the past 200 years. So, you know, certain parts of our hormonal system, our endocrine system start to wear out and replacing those things with healthy natural hormones is a fantastic idea. So hormone replacement, absolutely, because we've got to not have pain. And then the main thing that disappears in women in their midlife 40s and on is desire. So there's no desire that wanting to so frequently we put desire and arousal together, but they're actually quite separate many, many of my patients are most in mind. I felt this way, too. I didn't have any trouble becoming aroused. I just didn't have the desire to I just said rather not like yeah, I could do it. But just kind of like, kind of maybe not maybe tomorrow, kind of like many people feel about going to the gym, right? We know it's healthy. We know it's good. But it's like, yeah, I don't really want to
Katie Fogarty 41:59
we know we feel good afterwards. But we don't prioritize it. Because I always say that, like when you
Speaker 1 42:03
go to the gym, you're like, yes, that was great. I'm going to do it three times a week. And then you're like, Okay, well, I mean, I didn't, I forgot to go. So it just me making, putting putting whatever in place to make it more likely that it's going to continue to be something that we desire, and honestly becomes a habit just like those of us like me who go to the gym regularly. It's a habit, I love it, it makes me feel good. Now, if I don't go, I don't feel good. I have the same experience with sex. If I don't have sex for a week, I don't feel good. i
Katie Fogarty 42:33
It's the attention intention, you know, bringing back this notion of pets, right, you know, planning for the long haul, because you want like longevity and your intimate relationships, but actually just bringing the attention to making it happen. Susan, I could talk all day, I'm to finish what you're gonna say because I like I'm so excited. But we do need to move into our speed round. And I wanted to ask you one thing before we do so. So you want to finish your thought. And then I have one last question.
Speaker 1 42:57
I was gonna say one, one quick sentence about that. So I understand that there are people listening, who are in a long term relationship, and they're just like saying, it's never gonna happen for me, my you know, my husband, and I just don't connect, and we can't talk about it. And we haven't had sex in a year. And maybe we're sleeping in separate rooms, that that type of elephant in the room is still able to be addressed. And not just that. We could talk about this for another hour. But we know for many studies that couples who talk about sex more, have more sex and better sex. So opening the conversation, even if it's a very difficult one at first, just Honey, I love you, I I really want to be connected to you, I realized that we've drifted apart a little bit lately. I'd really like to sit down at a time when you make sure you ask permission at a time when you're available and comfortable to just talk about
Katie Fogarty 43:50
sex. That's fantastic. How could that
Speaker 1 43:53
be badly received? I mean, in fact, if it was badly received, maybe that's
Katie Fogarty 43:57
there's bigger they're bigger questions. That's That's fantastic advice. I love that, Susan, that's a great note. So the very last thing I wanted to ask you is about something that is the very last thing that appears in your book. And it's something that you close and you close with a quote from the Persian poet Rumi, which I hope I'm saying that correctly. And if I'm not let me know. But the quote says Your task is not to seek for love but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. And I thought that was so astonishingly beautiful. It could be you know, it applies to things beyond simply love. You can use it to look at as a as a lens to examine your life from almost every angle and I'm wondering What role have any has aging played for you in removing barriers that might exist in your own life?
Speaker 1 44:45
And I love that quote, too, and I know many people have used it. It's a fantastic one. So that just speaks to the idea that everything that you need is already inside you. It's not outside of you. We don't need to be seeking it outside but just It's already here. And so just removing whatever we've set out whatever walls or defenses that we've set up that have made it temporarily inaccessible. Going back to the idea that our sexual life is never dead, it's just sleep. We have a saying in our office that she's not dead. She's just taking a nap. It's still there. I
Katie Fogarty 45:22
love who you are.
Speaker 1 45:23
Right? So I so in my own life, I really thought my sexual being was dead. I was nothing, no feelings below the waist at all. In fact, that wasn't true. It was I had to set up barriers because I was not in a healthy relationship. And I'd sort of shut down a lot of my emotional connections and so freeing ourselves from those things, allows us to see that it is still there. Everything that we have, everything we need is already inside us. It sounds corny, but I think it's absolutely true. Still there. I love
Katie Fogarty 45:57
that's a beautiful note to end on. Thank you, Susan. We're going to move into our speed round. This is just something I do at the end and on a high energy note because there's so much more that we could explore it and allows us to quickly touch on a few things. Are you ready? Okay, writing sexually woke was oh
Speaker 1 46:21
so eye opening. I that was mind blowing.
Katie Fogarty 46:27
You share idea the three secrets of sexually woke women and we call them Aussie. These three teachable moments are things we can learn from sexually woke women. Which of any of these three was sort of the biggest personal surprise to you?
Speaker 1 46:42
The one that I was doing the least was the attention and intention part like you said like not paying attention to saying hello and goodbye. Not doing those fun, easy things like hanging out under under the table or whatever it might be. Just recognizing that tiny little moments of fun, that are free can change relationships. You don't need a 10 carat diamond ring. Just a fun little thing. Little saying a
Katie Fogarty 47:07
cute little moment. I love it. I love it. Okay, so for painful sex, we touched on this vaginal estrogen lube or both.
Speaker 1 47:14
Estrogen 100% Estrogen creates a situation where the tissue produces moisture itself, whereas a loop just puts something slippery over unhealthy tissue. So lube is a good band aid but estrogen causes the tissue to produce moisture on its own. So
Katie Fogarty 47:33
I love this and for anyone who wants more in vaginal estrogen I did a show a couple of weeks ago with Dr. Shiva golf golf, Ronnie and we talked about all the different ways that vaginal estrogen can be used. It's gonna cream suppositories rings, you know, we heard what she preferred, we heard the cadence that she thinks she should be using and so it's a great deep dive for people who want more. Okay, what's one thing you wish all women in midlife knew in order to reclaim a more vibrant sex life?
Speaker 1 48:03
Oh, I just wish they knew that they already have it inside of them. It's already there. You don't have to go find it. It's already there.
Katie Fogarty 48:12
You just have to uncover it ladies. That's one of that. Alright, finally your one word answer to complete the sentence as I age I feel empowered. Nice. Susan. This has been so fantastic. This is a wonderful book Susan's shares incredible information on her Instagram. I know that you have you know other offerings that that listeners can find on your website before we say goodbye. How can our listeners find you and your work and find sexually woke awaken the secrets to your best sex life in midlife and beyond.
Speaker 1 48:48
So the central website is complete midlife wellness center.com that links to everything that I do, including my private practice in Houston. We have two offices here and expanding. We do see patients virtually as well. And all of the different things the book, podcast, the blog, I have a YouTube channel so everything lives on that website, complete midlife Wellness Center. Can't wait to talk to anybody who wants to interact there. It's been so fun talking to you.
Katie Fogarty 49:21
I love it. All of that is going into the show notes. Thank you so much, Susan. This wraps a certain age a show for women who are aging without apology. Want more of a certain age, sign up for our newsletter age boldly over on our website a certain age pod.com or follow us on Instagram at a certain age pod. We share bonus content giveaways links and mid life resources come hang out. Special thanks to Michael Mann CME who composed and produced our theme music See you next time and until then, age boldly beauties.