Novelist Andrea Dunlop on Midlife Coming of Age Stories and Why Women Are the Fiercest Creatures
Show Snapshot:
Meet novelist Andrea Dunlop, author of the wildly addictive page-turner, "Women Are the Fiercest Creatures." This week's conversation toggles between the Seattle tech scene, new motherhood, parenting teens, divorce, yoga, women's invisible labor, female friendships, and why women are the fiercest creatures. Stick around to hear us get into all the things!
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Andrea’s Book: Women Are the Fiercest Creatures
Quotable:
I went through a lot of rejection as a writer when I was in my 20s and early 30s. And that never goes away. Artistic careers are full of ups and downs. And I think all of that rejection actually really bolstered my confidence. I think you cannot underestimate the effect of resilience on confidence.
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty 0:03
Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women are unafraid to age out loud. Beauties, we've done dozens of shows that get into midlife sleep disruptions, night sweats, and how hard it is to clock a solid eight hour of z's. So I hate to break it to you, this show is not going to help you at all. And don't say I didn't warn you. I'm about to introduce you novelist Andrea Dunlop who's written a wildly addictive page turner called Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. The moment I cracked the book open, I was in trouble. I clocked three straight nights of just one more page, just one more page mojo, burning the midnight oil, because I needed to figure out what happened, who done it, and just keep on going. The book toggles between the Seattle tech scene, new motherhood, parenting teens, divorce, yoga, the invisible labor of women, female friendships, and what happens when three women learn they have one man in common, and that they are in fact the fiercest creatures. Stick around to hear us get into all the things. Welcome, Andrea.
Andrea Dunlop 1:07
Thank you so much for having me, Katie. And thank you for that great introduction. I'm always telling people that if someone tells me that my book either makes them lose sleep, or are late for something, makes them late for something, that's like the best compliments you can give an author.
Katie Fogarty 1:21
I'm not kidding. I was like looking at my clock, I'm like oh my god, it's one in the morning, I need to just like stick my bookmark in and pick this back up tomorrow. I really tore through this book. I'm so excited to introduce you to our listeners who you know, have not yet had the pleasure of meeting you. I got to hang and hear you talk about this book twice, once at your book launch party in New York. And then we were both at the women's weekend retreat organized by your publisher, Zibby Owens of Zibby Books. I know this is such a fantastic conversation, I'm excited to share you. And I would love for you just to do a little quick stage-setting and share with the A Certain Age listeners, what made you write this book, what was going on in your own life, and give us a quick snapshot of what readers can expect.
Andrea Dunlop 2:11
Absolutely. So I started this novel, this is my fourth novel, I started writing it when I was pregnant with my oldest child, my daughter, who is now four and a half. And I finished it while I was pregnant with my son who is right now nine months old. So certainly becoming a mother, pregnancy, new motherhood, all of the fraught things about that culturally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, weighed really heavily on this book, and, and were something that was just really omnipresent for me. And so it was a really interesting time to be writing this book just in my own life, but also in the world. Because of course, in between my two pregnancies, we had a number of major sort of spells of social upheaval, obviously the COVID 19 pandemic, that really, I think, put a spotlight in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime on division of labor in households, and sort of the expectations on working women in particular, but just women in general, you know, and I think working moms in particular, of trying to sort of like, keep all the balls in the air. And when we were all absolutely separated from any support system, you know, my daughter was 18 months when we went into the pandemic, and I am a freelancer, you know, I'm an author and a podcaster. So I have a lot more flexibility than my husband. And in fact, I was in a period of my life where I did not have any, you know, sort of really super impending deadlines. And so I basically, you know, for the first few months of the pandemic was, I would write a little bit in the mornings, but then the rest of the day I was with our daughter, because my husband, you know, didn't have any option to sort of be flexible at work or take time off. He was working from home, but he was, you know, working regular hours. And so, you know, and a lot of women did that, obviously. And we had this sort of unprecedented number of women dropping out of the workforce, and then also just so much stress on parents, and, you know, whenever stress is falling on parents, not you know particularly in my household which is very good for me, but like in a lot of households that's falling really disproportionately on on the moms and obviously, then, you know, I have friends who are single moms, and that's, that's just even a whole different sort of ball of wax. But, but yeah, I mean, I think we were all sort of struggling and it really like, I think a positive that came out of that was that the invisible became visible. And I think, you know, I find now that sort of those, the notion that you have a family, that you have children that might, you know, interrupt a podcast interview for example
Katie Fogarty 5:01
Sure, absolutely. We've had that.
Andrea Dunlop 5:02
Yeah, I mean, or like, or people's dogs even, or the idea of like, oh, you know, we have like, you know, people taking care of elderly parents, or just all that stuff that kind of goes on in the home because we're all working from home, just became very visible. And I found that people are much less sort of judgmental about that, everyone just sort of like accepts that that's like, your life is going on around you while you work. And there isn't this sort of like church and state divide. I guess, actually, this is probably not the best time to use church and state as, as an example of something that's well divided. That's like a whole other -
Katie Fogarty 5:36
Exactly.
Andrea Dunlop 5:37
That's beyond the scope of this convorsation.
Katie Fogarty 5:38
We could have an entire podcast on that. I hear you.
Andrea Dunlop 5:41
Right, right.
Katie Fogarty 5:42
I know, but you're absolutely right. You know, I do, my day job is working as a career coach, I interact with all my clients over Zoom, and I did well before the pandemic, but you know, all of a sudden, they're not on Zoom in their office, they're on Zoom in their pajamas in their home with the kids in the background. And so, you know, you're exactly right, we all have this more intimate peek at people's lives. And motherhood really is a big theme of this book, and you feature three women, can you give a quick snapshot for our listeners of what the book is all about?
Andrea Dunlop 6:13
Yeah, absolutely. So it centers around the story of three women. In particular, the two that you hear from are Sam and Anna, and all three women share a relationship with Jake, who is our tech impresario, who is about to take his successful social media company public. And all three of these women in their ways, and in particular, Sam and Anna, have made huge contributions to this company, either by, you know, with, I won't give too much away, but you know, by sort of actually working on, you know, the original algorithm for the company, and when working on some of the original, like when it was invented, or, you know, by being a spouse that is supporting and filling in, the way that you see a lot of spouses of entrepreneurs do, and that is, that is something, although Jake bears no resemblance in his actual sort of character and moral compass to my own father, you know, my dad is an entrepreneur, and he, you know, I also just grew up seeing how my mom really made our lives possible by what she was doing at home, and that is much less visible and much less recognized. And, in fact, it's sort of that, you know, the woman behind the man thing where we, you know, you really do, it's like, if you peek behind, there's someone that's taking care of, all of the domestic, all of the sort of, like, emotional needs, all of the, everything else, you know, and especially if that man has a family well that person is probably doing a lot of the childcare because being an entrepreneur and having your own company is extremely demanding, especially if you have a company that has a lot of employees and people's, you know, livelihoods are dependent on you. And so it's not a judgment on that setup, right. I mean, I don't think there, I think, you know, my parents I have all the respect in the world for the way that they set up their lives. And that really worked for them. But I think it's just when that goes completely unrecognized that it's really bothersome to me and so, so yeah, those were really, you know, those were really some of the things that were on my mind and in terms of the younger mom character, Jessica, so she's in her 20s and she's, you know, it's kind of the -
Katie Fogarty 8:18
The trophy wife.
Andrea Dunlop 8:19
Achetypal, second wife. Sorry?
Katie Fogarty 8:20
She's the trophy wife.
Andrea Dunlop 8:22
Yeah, she is the trophy wife.
Katie Fogarty 8:24
The hot Instagram influencer trophy wife.
Andrea Dunlop 8:27
Yes. A hot Instagram influencer trophy wife who has been told by the world that, that is her value, and starts to really question that as she goes through this major upheaval of motherhood. It's an upheaval to your body, it's an upheaval to your, you know, the entire way that you look at life. And I think the reason that motherhood was so interesting to me as a writer, and I actually felt like, although I did not enjoy being pregnant, it was really interesting to have something happen in my adult life. I mean, I was, I was relatively late to the game in motherhood, I was 36 when I had my daughter and I was 40 when I had my son, um, you know, to have something sort of completely change your life and change your entire perspective on life all at once, the way that becoming a mom does, was very interesting to me as sort of like a creative jumping off point, right. And so Jessica is the one that we actually see going through a pregnancy and, and becoming a new mom in the book in real time. And so you know, that really changes her perspective on things and she's sort of like, someone who's been told what her value is, and that her value is in her looks. And she really starts to question that and starts to question like, what's going on in her household and who her husband really is. And so she, you know, all all three women go through a huge reckoning about who they are, the choices they've made, the way they're parenting, and this man that sort of just loomed larger than life and has sort of you know, been a little bit of a vampire on all three of them.
Katie Fogarty 10:04
Absolutely. And they go through such a rich evolution in the book, which I found as the reader sort of grew my interest in what was going to happen to each one of them because I began to see that they were evolving as mothers and people. And it also helped advance the story and got me turning those pages like I said. Andrea, we're gonna head into a quick break but when we come back, I want to keep talking about this notion of evolution.
[AD BREAK]
Andrea, we're back from the break. When we went into it we talked about how the women in your book evolve as mothers, as characters, you talked about your own evolution, and I'm curious - the book really does feature women who are at new motherhood, which we see in Jessica, we see mothers that have you know, teenage kids who are starting to pull away and have their own hidden lives, and I'm curious - you know, as you aged yourself, as you became a mother, did it change the way you write about female characters? Because this is your fourth book, do you see a difference in the way that you create and write female characters based on your own aging process?
Andrea Dunlop 12:41
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, my, my novels have always featured sort of strong female characters, which I think is kind of fun.
Katie Fogarty 12:51
By the way, aren't all female characters strong?
Andrea Dunlop 12:55
I mean, yeah, I think in, yeah. It's like, you would never see a category on Netflix that was like Strong Male Leads, right?
Katie Fogarty 13:02
Right, exactly.
Andrea Dunlop 13:04
Yeah, so it's funny that we have to designate it. But yeah, I mean, I think I have always, you know, my, my novels have always centered women. They've always been very centric to like the female experience of, you know, female friendships and sort of female coming of age. And I like to think of this as my female coming of middle age. Because it's, you know, all of the characters, or two of, the two main characters in the book, Sam and Anna, are both my age, right? They're both in their early 40s. And so I think it's a really interesting time of life. So yeah, I think really, and just sort of the title of this book, you know, Women Are the Fiercest Creatures, where that comes from is really my experience with childbirth, which was really not what I expected. I think it's a shockingly secretive thing in our culture for something that's just the most quotidian thing that's happening all around us. But it's, it was, I didn't see any realistic depictions of it in film or TV. I mean, I you know, in books, it's like very hard to find sort of good information. And you know, you talk to, talk to other women in your life, you talk to your mom, you talk to your, you know, female friends that have had kids, but for me, and I obviously, this is my experience, and I know unfortunately everyone does not have a positive and empowering experience with this process, which is like a whole other conversation. But for me, you know, giving birth was really empowering. And I think it really, for me, it really flipped on its head, like the idea of strength, right? I think, thinking about you know, physical strength even as just that. Right, thinking about like the idea of like what a body can do. Because if you look at sort of men and women, and there's obviously this very accepted, you know, idea that men are physically stronger than women, right? But what we're talking about there is basically upper body strength. And then you look at like, okay, but there's this whole thing that a female body can do that a male body can't do anything like this. And it's so impressive and it's so intense. And I think for me going through childbirth, as a you know, I've been an athlete all my life, I was a college tennis player, and that's always been something that's really, you know, important to me and sort of part of my identity. And so going through that physical process, I was like, Oh, wow, this is like, the hardest workout times a million. You know, it's like, they call it labor for a reason.
Katie Fogarty 15:28
Exactly.
Andrea Dunlop 15:29
It's such an intense physical experience, and you just feel, like for me, you know, I had again, and like, you almost don't want to tell people about like, your positive, you know, labor experiences sometimes because you don't want people to feel like bad if they didn't have that experience, or feel like, you know, you're, but for me personally, and I've talked to other women who have had this experience, you know, for me, I got a massive, like, adrenaline high, right after I was done and just felt like, I was like, Oh, my God, I feel like I can tear a phone book in half, you know. Just really, that was so edifying to me, and I just sort of like, I was like, I can never look at women the same -
Katie Fogarty 16:10
I know, oh, my gosh.
Andrea Dunlop 16:11
- because I just know that like, women are out here doing this, like tiny women, like otherwise sort of like unimpressive just like normal women walking down the street, every day out here.
Katie Fogarty 16:20
Every day, every day.
Andrea Dunlop 16:22
For all of time, you know.
Katie Fogarty 16:23
I love that.
Andrea Dunlop 16:23
And I think also for me, it made me feel like really connected to other women in this way that I don't think, I mean, I've always been like, a girl's girl, I always have liked spending time with other women. For the most part, all of my close friends have been women. But I think, um, you know, there was something, there's sort of this ancient thing where you're just like, even as much as you know, the medicine around childbirth, and all the interventions that you can have in the way that they can, you know, there's a lot of good things, obviously, that evolved around childbirth happens. But on some level, like it is the same business that was happening however many hundreds of years ago, and you just think like, this is really profound. And you know, that, at some, like, at some points that your life might be at risk, that the baby's life might be at risk, and so I really felt like I had sort of like, crossed over to this other side and really felt like I had sort of like gone to the door of life and death. And I was like that completely, that was like a very life changing experience for me. And so I think it just completely changed the way that I looked at women. And you know, my husband was in the room both times, and I think it changed the way he looked at women. I mean, he told me, he was just like, I like in the best way, like, I will never, like, look at you the same because I just, like that was incredible, right? And I was like, maybe every man should be put through this and just be like, this is what women are like, this is what women, you know, are capable of. And again, I don't sort of want to like leave non-moms out of this conversation, I don't want to make it sound like Oh, women who have children are like, somehow better, but I think it's like, even people who don't choose to they're still you know, like, capable of it. And obviously, some people are not, but I think it just like, you know, for me, that was a very, like, that was just such a profound experience. And I think I was like the way that we look at physical strength is very wrongheaded.
Katie Fogarty 18:26
Absolutely. Andrea, I love this conversation. I have had three children two I had preeclampsia with and, you know, had very difficult deliveries where they were like, basically, like dragged out or it was a C section. But with my middle one, I had that, you know, that euphoric rush that you described after having, you know, a very healthy eas- , you know, I mean, it wasn't easy, it took a lot of work to get there - but you know, when you finally push the baby out, it's that endorphin rush that you talk about. And it's, it is miraculous, you're like, Wow, I can't believe I did this. And so, so I agree, there is that moment of, you know, you saw this connective tissue to the lineage of women that have that have preceded you and have kept, you know, the human race afloat, basically. And so the title of this book, Women Are the Fiercest Creatures, is off the charts good. I am not going to argue with you on this. I am in wholehearted agreement, and I just I adore this notion. But you do take a nuanced look at all your female characters because there's not this, there's an evolution of confidence or fierceness that they go through. And at one point, you say, when you're talking about Anna, who is the ex wife of Jake, you know, it's been sort of pushed aside for this younger model, and you really conjure up her inner life very well. You say quote, 'whereas Jake experienced only fleeting moments of self doubt, she experienced only fleeting moments of self confidence. Her faith in her idea and her capabilities was like a silvery fish that shimmer just out of reach. Each time she tried to grasp it, to hold on to it, it slipped from her hand.' And this really jumped out of the page at me. Because I think that confidence, you know, much like happiness is an inside job. And I'm wondering, you know, your own confidence as a novelist, your own confidence as a woman, you know, what role if any did aging play in how you developed your own confidence and your abilities, your creativity, and just the way you live your life overall?
Andrea Dunlop 20:31
It's a great question. So yeah, I, you know, it's funny because people always ask, well people ask me this less now that I'm on my fourth novel, your first novel everyone asks you this, and this is I don't know why in particular, but I do feel like women get asked this, women novelists, get asked this question more. Like, oh, is your, are any of your characters, like, based on you? Like, which one is you? And the answer is, like, none of them and also all of them. Right? So I think like a piece of me is in every one of my characters and certainly for this novel it's in the three main female characters. And so you know, for Anna, I see her sort of coming into her own, and thinking that she would have probably developed more confidence and more independence if her husband had not gotten in the way. And I think that, you, you know, I, when I was younger, I was always very wary of getting into long term romantic relationships. And that's partly just because I was like, living in New York in my 20s. And being like,
Katie Fogarty 21:35
Living a fabulous life, don't tie me down.
Andrea Dunlop 21:37
Having fun and like doing what you should do in New York, which is just like, date everyone. But, um, but yeah, I mean, so I was very wary of sort of getting into a serious relationship, because I knew that like, I didn't want to get married young, and I, you know, I, it took till I was about my late 20s, early 30s, to really realize that I did want to have kids and get married and all that. And so, you know, what I saw a lot of when I was younger, was girls my age making big life decisions around their boyfriends, and moving to cities to accommodate a boyfriend's job or going to colleges even where their boyfriend was going or sort of following, you know, men around and that's nothing, that's not to say like, that's to trash any of those women or their decisions. You know, obviously, that's a very individual thing. And, you know, obviously, partnerships are really important, like, right now, obviously, I would like go wherever my husband goes. But I do think like, I didn't see men doing that the same way, right. Like, I didn't see like men moving,
Katie Fogarty 22:38
Following their girlfriends
Andrea Dunlop 22:39
Following their girlfriends jobs and that kind of thing. And I think that was just sort of like, that was how we were, you know, social, that was how we were socialized. Right was to sort of, like be the sidekick kind of. And so I think I was so like, when I look back at like, I sort of look back at like I was like, maybe more than usual, resistant to the idea of being in any kind of long term relationship when I was younger. And I think that was a big part of it, like I was just sort of scared of getting pulled off course. And so for me, Anna is a character that got massively pulled off course, and didn't get to have all of those experiences that I got to have, where I was building my career, where I was taking risks, where I was doing things, where I traveled alone, where I was, like, you know, all of those things that really built up my confidence between, you know, graduating college, and now being, you know, being 40. And so, I think, you know, I, I've been, I've been lucky that, like, my parents, you know, gave me a lot of confidence. My dad is a very, like, people adore my dad, I mean, I adore my dad, but like people in general adore my dad, because he is the sort of, you know, he's in his mid 70s now, but he just has this like, great spirit, where he's, like, you know, is very good at convincing people that they can do anything. So like, my dad will be like, your idea, you should go for it, you know, just like really is such a believer in like, going after you know, what you want and sort of, you know, things being possible and taking risks and not getting too attached to sort of how things are gonna go. And I think that that really put me in good stead to be an artist, because it's a place where you have to take a lot of risks and sort of endure a lot of rejection. And I also, you know, I went through a lot of rejection as a writer when I was in my 20s and early 30s. And that sort of never goes away. I mean, artistic careers are just full of ups and downs. And I think all of that rejection actually really bolstered my confidence. I think you cannot, you cannot underestimate the effect of resilience on confidence. Right? I think there is a very direct, I think there's a very direct connection and I think that in many ways for girls of my generation, although we had a lot of you know, a lot of advantages that our foremothers did not right, we were this first generation that was really born post, you know, sort of Gen X and millennial women are this first generation that was born post Roe v Wade post Title Nine, you know, that really had like equal access to things like sports and these other things that really help you build your confidence, and really were so crucial for me. And now unfortunately, things are sliding in a backwards direction, which I sort of can't even, you know, wrap my head around. But there was also, you know, I think that women are, you know, my age, when I was growing up, were sort of not encouraged to take risks in the same way. You know, people don't bet on women in the same way, that's true. You know, something, a fact that stuck in my head a lot while I was writing this book, in particular, is it sort of deals with the tech industry and VC, the idea of like venture capital funding. You know, only 2% of venture capital goes to female led teams, and like, I knew it was going to be bad, but when I saw that statistic, I was like, 2%?! I was like, that is truly pathetic.
Katie Fogarty 25:48
But Andrea, you know what's even more shocking is that women leadership teams tend to outperform, companies with women leadership teams outperform that of men.
Andrea Dunlop 25:58
Yes, 100%, yes.
Katie Fogarty 25:59
So I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, Hey, like, I'm a podcaster and like a writer, you know math is not my strong suit. But I still sort of feel like, if
Andrea Dunlop 26:09
The mah doesn't matter.
Katie Fogarty 26:12
The math doesn't add up. I don't understand why people are not following the, the, you know, the results. And investing more in women.
Andrea Dunlop 26:21
Don't do it because you like want to be a good person, or it's because you're feminists, or God forbid, that, you know, talking point of like, because you're being woke or whatever. Like, do it because it will be a good investment for God's sake. So yeah, I mean, it's really, but I think the reality is, like, people don't, and I think this is something that like, I really have come to grasping this age, and that, like aging has helped me figure out is that like, I think when you start off in your 20s, and you're in the working world, you're just like, these people who are 15 to 20 years older than me, they all know what they're talking about. They're doing things in a logical way. And like, they know what's up. And then you kind of get, and you're like, oh, no, like, they don't. Like everyone to some degree is sort of winging it, right. And like, I think, especially with this idea of like venture capital, and like, it's, it's just people, and it's not that some of them aren't very smart, or like, whatever, it's just people in rooms, looking at like pitch decks and looking at, and listening to a pitch and looking at the person in front of them. And like, the reality is, and I mean, this is, there is a very parallel problem in publishing. You know, it's a different, it's a sort of a different gender skew. But like, you know, where people pick people that look like them, right, I think people are just more inclined to, like, mentor, invest in, take risks on, people who remind them of their younger selves, I think that is just a true thing. And it's not that there's something inherently malicious about that. But it's like, you have to sort of correct for that. I mean, especially if it makes good business sense. That's just, there's money on the table. You know, I don't know why people wouldn't take it. But yeah.
Katie Fogarty 27:57
I love this notion that you're looking, you know, when you're younger, you think that people who are ahead of you in chronological years have it figured out, but the reality is, you know, it's all just people and people are people and, and we're all trying to kind of sometimes make it up as we go along. I mean, I'm thinking about the Silicon Valley Bank failure, you know, implosion, which just seems like again, you know, the math just didn't add up. Why are you investing money in, tying up money in long term assets, when you have, you know, the people who've invested have the right to take the money back whenever they want. So, that is an oversimplification of that but it just shows that very, very smart people make mistakes. But I want to go back to something that you said earlier, which really, again, kind of jumped out at me and you talked about confidence and resilience, or there's a through line between the two. And I really believe this to be true. And I feel like midlife is a time of enormous confidence, even though pop culture will tell you like, you know, the runway is short, and that you're invisible and that you know, like everything goes away like your health, your lungs, your you know, your sexiness, all that stuff, because we get to midlife and we don't think any of that's true. You know, when we ask ourselves like, do I believe those things? For me the answer is no. And part of the reason why I feel confident in midlife, I talk to women every single Monday, who are extremely confident about this phase of life, is because they have gone through hard things, you know? And no one gets to the north side of 40 without going through something hard, a global pandemic, you know, the challenges of caring for kids and sort of surviving all these things and, or like you went through rejection, early rejection as an author but still kept on going. And we learn that we can do these hard things and that sort of sets us up for success. So I just I feel like this is there's not even a question in this, I'm just saying.
Andrea Dunlop 29:55
I mean, I have a, I yeah, I love, I love that. I think that's so true and I think it's like one of the secrets of entering midlife. And I feel like, you know, and this sounds a little bit cliche to say, but I was like, Oh, 40 is like the start of something all new. I was like, now I'm in this other phase of life, sort of, you know, officially, right. It's like, happened overnight, but you sort of, you know I think those milestone birthdays really sort of make you think in that way. And, and, and I, I agree with you, I really think like, because if, you know, if you're living in a patriarchal society where women are mostly valued for their looks, and especially for like looking young, but it's like, think about the confidence, Katie, that you had when you were a hot 25 year old? And like, how that's different from the confidence that you have now. And like, which one would you prefer to have? And sure enough with like, Jessica in the book, right, who is like the hot 25 year old, who has no self confidence? Because the thing is, like, if you're deriving your confidence as a woman from how sort of basically sexually viable men, in the aggregate, not even like a specific man, but just sort of like men in the abstract, like, think you are, I mean, like that also, like, being a very visible young woman, is a hell of a lot of trouble, too. I mean, you just have to, you have to deal with like, more creeps, more nonsense, more undermining, people take you less seriously, men take you less seriously, sometimes women too. So it's just like, it's really not such a great deal to be like, young and hot. I mean sure, there's fun things about it, right. Like, like, I can be nostalgic about that, but I don't miss it, like I'd much prefer to be just like,
Katie Fogarty 31:46
That's hysterical. But Andrea, I totally agree with you. Because it, when if, you know, there are reasons why people, you know, society has made us feel that it's so important to be young and desirable. We live in a youth obsessed culture. But that's, as I said earlier, confidence is an inside job and when your confidence is coming from something that's so ephemeral, and that's like transitory, like looks or attention or whatever the you know, sort of the currency is, even at a young age, you can sense that that is meaningless. And you know, this is it's interesting. I actually had a wonderful guest that came on her name is Patti Temple Rocks, and she wrote a book called You're Not Done Yet, which is, I'm Still Not Done Yet, rather, which is about aging in the workplace. And she said, this kind of, this sort of ageist, you know, tropes, the what we just talked about in terms of the, you know, the importance of youth obsessed looks, it's corrosive, not only to the people that are, you know, older, but it's corrosive to young people as well, because they're no dummies, they're looking and recognizing that they too will age, that this sort of silvery, you know, fish of attention and desirability, and youth is just temporary. And so we're just setting us all up. You know, ageism isn't just bad for old people.
Andrea Dunlop 33:05
No, no, it's bad for young people, too. And yeah, I think that was, I mean, I had, I had good occasion to really think about my 25 year old self, because I was just in New York, which is where I met you, which was wonderful. And, you know, I was like, with all the book publicists, who were my age and that was the job I had when I was that, you know, and they're all just like, young and gorgeous. And, you know, and I just thought, like, I was like, oh, like, I remember that. And I was like, and God, it was so hard. I was so like, yeah, it was fun, but it was like it, it just, I wasn't, I just wasn't so secure in myself. And I think like, going through all that stuff, and all the bodily changes, too. I mean, you know, for me, like pregnancy, I and I, this is also, you know, it sort of, it was part of the book, like, you know, I for whatever reason that bodies do, I gained a lot of weight with both pregnancies. And so that has been like an interesting body journey and an interesting, like, sort of time to reflect on like, Okay, well, like how do I value myself and sort of, you know, being up against this idea of like, women bouncing back, which is like, the worst phrase in the entire world.
Katie Fogarty 33:16
Yes.
Andrea Dunlop 33:17
But like, you know, it really just like it was a good, it's been a good experience for me to just be like, yeah, like, bodies are malleable, they're gonna change, like, there is no such thing as a body staying static. And I also like, I'm at the beginning sort of stages of being at that age where I have a lot of friends that are fretting about sort of physical signs of aging. And you know, and again, I don't, I think I'm very much pro women doing whatever they need to do to feel comfortable. So if what you need to do to feel comfortable is like, you know, get some Botox, do whatever. I dye my hair every five weeks, like why don't, you know, there's no judgment on any of that.
Katie Fogarty 34:54
Yes, I get it.
Andrea Dunlop 34:55
But like, I think just seeing the sort of societal pressure and I'm just like, where does this all end? Like when are we, like if you start doing it -
Katie Fogarty 35:04
It probably ends in bankruptcy, frankly.
Andrea Dunlop 35:06
Because first of all -
Katie Fogarty 35:10
By the way, like, I'm like, you know, I'm not a real blonde and let me tell you, you know, I could probably pay the kids college tuition you know. But you know, I started with Sun-In in eighth grade and you know, it's just, it's, it hasn't gotten any cheaper, let me just put it that way. So you know, I get it. It's, you know, sometimes we just, we do what we, sometimes we have to do what we do to feel good and, it's okay. And I love this notion of no judgment. Andrea, this has been such an incredible conversation. I could talk to you forever. We are nearing the end of our time, though. So I do want to do a speed round and I think this is a really fun, high energy note to end on. I always do it to close. Are you ready?
Andrea Dunlop 35:49
Yep, I'm ready.
Katie Fogarty 35:50
Okay, let's do it. This is quick one to two word answers. Writing Women Are the Fiercest Creatures was:
Andrea Dunlop 36:00
Just a word, I'm like one to two word answers? You can't ask a novelist for one to two word answers.
Katie Fogarty 36:05
You're like I'm a novelist. I need 300 pages, right?
Andrea Dunlop 36:09
I know exactly, and it's me who writes 100,000 word first drafts. It was a journey. How about that?
Katie Fogarty 36:14
I love it. We love honest answers. Okay, maybe this one's easier. Seeing Fiercest Creatures on a bookstore shelf felt:
Andrea Dunlop 36:24
So good. Nice, perfect.
My favorite thing about being an author.
Katie Fogarty 36:27
Yes, done and on the shelf. I love it. Okay, do you write in longhand or on a computer?
Andrea Dunlop 36:33
Oh, on a computer.
Katie Fogarty 36:35
Who would play Jake in a movie?
Andrea Dunlop 36:38
Oh, God. I mean, I would think Armie Hammer. I mean, I think he's been like driven out of Hollywood but that was how I was picturing him was like an Armie Hammer type, so.
Katie Fogarty 36:46
I get it, like a very -
Andrea Dunlop 36:48
Whoever the new Armie, whoever the new sort of like mildly handsome blond actor is.
Katie Fogarty 36:54
Right, like chiseled, chiseled cheekbones, blond hair, right, sign 'em up. Alright, so Seattle is really a secondary character in this book and I know that's where you're from. What's the best spot for an out-of-towner to visit or see?
Oh, I think Edmonds, Washington, which is the town where I actually live. It's on the water and it's very beautiful and quaint and fun.
Nice. Okay, who is a writer or a content creator that gets midlife women right that we should have on our radar?
Andrea Dunlop 37:22
Oh my gosh.
Katie Fogarty 37:25
And you can answer more -
Andrea Dunlop 37:26
How about Katie? Um, oh, you know what? I will say this, Taffy, oh, I'm gonna murder her last name. Brodesser-Akner, is that it? Who, who wrote Fleischman Is in Trouble.
Katie Fogarty 37:40
Ooh.
Andrea Dunlop 37:40
That novel and that, and I'm so sorry for murdering her last name, I just realized I've never said it out loud but I love her work. And that novel is so good. The Hulu adaptation is so good. Both my husband and I liked it, loved it. I laughed, I cried, it's amazing. And I think it's the best depiction of midlife I've ever seen.
Katie Fogarty 37:58
Oh my gosh. Okay, that is so on my radar. I haven't done it yet. I will un-murder her name, I'll find it and do it correctly, spell it correctly and put it in the show notes. Finally, your one word answer to complete the sentence, as I age I feel:
Andrea Dunlop 38:16
Powerful.
Katie Fogarty 38:17
Nice. I thought you're gonna say fierce.
Andrea Dunlop 38:21
That would have been more on brand.
Katie Fogarty 38:22
More on brand, exactly. This has been so much fun. How can our listeners, you know, find you your books, your podcasts, all the good stuff?
Andrea Dunlop 38:30
Best place to find all the things I'm doing is on Instagram. That is the only social media platform I'm really, I'm really active on. I also have a website AndreaDunlop.net and my podcast which is called Nobody Should Believe Me, that is a true crime podcast about Munchausen by proxy, that can be found anywhere podcasts are listened to.
Katie Fogarty 38:50
Phenomenal. All are going in the show notes. This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women who are aging without apology. Thank you for listening in and being a friend of the show. If you are an ACA fan, if the show adds some zip to your workout, your car commute, your daily walk, if the show makes you happier, smarter, more inspired, or simply makes you feel like you're hanging with some fun friends, pease think about writing an Apple Podcast review. It's super easy to do. Just open the podcast app, find the show, and scroll down to the end. Special thanks to Michael Mancini who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time and until then, age boldly beauties.