Cultivating Happiness One Thank-You Note at a Time with Author Nancy Davis Kho

Relationships and Parenting
Written By Season One

Show Snapshot:

Want to inject more happiness into your life? Think about writing someone in your life a thank-you note. Writer and GenX podcaster Nancy Davis Kho, author of the feel-good read The Thank-You Project, walks us through the science-backed benefits of gratitude and how you can rewire your neural pathways and cultivate more happiness with a thank-you project of your own.  

Audiophile bonus, we talk music, her awarding-winning podcast Midlife Mixtape and all things GenX.

In This Episode We Cover:

1.    Why Nancy launched a “thank-you project” to mark her 50th birthday, writing 50 letters to the people who shaped and inspired her

2.    How expressing gratitude cultivates happiness

3.    The surprising health benefits of gratitude

4.    How writing thank-you notes (or simply thinking grateful thoughts) can rewire your brain

5.    Using Nancy’s “see, say, and savor” method to identify who and what to be grateful for in your own life

6.    Reframing negative experiences through the lens of letter-writing

7.    Why the pandemic is the perfect time to explore what’s going right in your life

8.    Thank-you projects aren’t just for birthdays. Ideas for pegging the project to other life milestones.

9.    Nancy’s days as a blogging pioneer and why she launched Midlife Mixtape a podcast on music and midlife

10. The music getting us through the pandemic

11. Why to consider giving kaftans a go

Quotable:

When you make a deliberate expression of gratitude, and whether that is writing something in a gratitude journal, or just thinking three good things in your life… you are actually enhancing positive recall bias. Every time I sat down to write a letter; I was getting a little bit more efficient at finding things to be grateful for.

What I didn't anticipate was how much writing these letters would change the way I looked at the world around me.

Transcript:

Katie Fogarty (00:03):

Welcome to A Certain Age, a show for women on life after 50, who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host, Katie Fogarty.

Have you ever taken the time to ask yourself who helped me become the person I am today? Is it my family and my friends? A supportive teacher, an encouraging boss? Maybe it's a lover or an ex? On the cusp of her 50th birthday, writer and Gen X podcaster. Nancy Davis Kho asked herself this exact question and set out to write 50 thank you letters to the people who shaped and influenced her over the years. What she didn't anticipate? How the process would inject more happiness and gratitude into her own life. 

Today, she joins me to talk about her book, The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness, One letter of Gratitude at a Time, which shares the story of her year of letter-writing, dives into the science-backed benefits of gratitude, and offers a roadmap for a thank-you project of your own. Plus, she gives us the skinny on her award-winning podcast Midlife Mixtape. Welcome, Nancy.

Nancy Davis Kho (01:02):

Thank you so much, Katie. I'm happy to be here.

Katie (01:04):

I'm really excited. I first discovered you as a fan of your podcast Midlife Mixtape, which is a fantastic series. It celebrates midlife and all things Gen X and music. And we'll talk about podcasting and your show a little bit later, but right now I want to dive into your book, The Thank-You Project. Can you tell us what made you start this particular project?

Nancy(01:25):

Sure, I'd be happy to. I was, as you said, coming into my 50th birthday year. It was the end of 2015. So, hats off to the 1966 babies. And I was feeling very reflective because I just felt like things were going so well for me. My parents were around, my husband and I had been married for, I think 24 years. At that point, we have two girls and they were doing fine. And I think by the time you are getting into your fifties, you know that you can't take that for granted. You've either experienced hard times, you've watched your friends suffer loss or go through challenges enough times to know that the good stuff is a little bit transitory, it's a little bit...you know, you can't take it for granted. So, I just thought, I am going to acknowledge this year. I'm going to write one letter every week to someone who has helped shaped or inspired me. And I was turning 50. So, 50 seemed like the right number of letters to read and I'm a planner. So, I thought, okay, that's great. I can do one a week during the calendar year. And I still get two weeks off for vacation.

Katie (02:32):

Nice.

Nancy (02:34):

And I thought, well, you know, and I wasn't exactly sure who all was going to write. I knew obviously I was going to do my family, my close friends. So, I made a quick list right before the New Year. I made a quick list of about, I guess, 20 names. And I thought I'll just start on these. And by the time I get to the 20th name, I'll figure that out. That's not until June. That's a problem for Future Me, who else I'm going to write to. Because I don't even know if I know 50 people. 

And I started the first two letters were to my mom and dad. And the book starts with the story that my dad...My mom's got dementia and dad was her caregiver. And my dad was so cute. He called me up and he's like, "Oh Nance. I love the letter. It's so great." And he framed it and he hung it over his desk in his office, which was adorable. Very on-brand for my father. And you know, six months later I was sitting and looking at that framed letter because I was sitting at my dad's desk writing his eulogy. He got diagnosed with cancer in June and six weeks later, we were at his funeral. And none of us knew he had it. It was mercifully short, his exit. And during a very traumatic, what could have been a really traumatic and painful time. It was certainly painful. It was a tremendous comfort to me that I had taken the time to write down for my dad, why he mattered to me, why I loved him so much, why I was so grateful to him. And he had time to absorb it before he died. And so, that’s just kind of one example of the benefit that came to me as the writer of these thank you letters that I didn't anticipate. So, it turned out I did not finish my letters in one year because after dad died, I was knocked off-kilter for a few months. Took me until the night before my 51st birthday, actually to write the last letter. 

But what I didn't anticipate was how much writing these letters would change the way I looked at the world around me. And so, the book is not a compilation of my letters, because who cares who I wrote to. It is a roadmap for readers to do this themselves. There are samples of some of my letters to kind of get you started. But I wanted to look at the science behind it. I wanted to understand why did I feel so much better? Why was the practice of writing thank you letters such a comfort to me during such a difficult year? And it turns out there's a ton of research on how gratitude and happiness work together in your brain. And I really wanted to give readers a jumpstart so they could do this for themselves. A lot of the book is just my thoughts about here are the kinds of people to whom you might want to write. So, that's the way it's organized is that there are kind of suggestions of different groups of people that you might want to write to. And my hope is that it's enough of a starting point for readers to think about how this it gets reflected in their own lives.

Katie (05:33):

There are so many wonderful prompts in the book that do help you do that reflecting and that do help you, sort of, jog your thinking and your memories. You said that you started with a list of 20, but then you needed to get 30 more. How did you find those other 30?

Nancy (05:48):

Well, the cool thing about writing a thank you letter, and I'm going to pull in the science where I can to help explain this. When you make a deliberate expression of gratitude, and whether that is writing something in a gratitude journal, or just thinking three good things in your life to yourself, you know, that taking that pause and thinking, "What are three things that I'm grateful for right now?” or writing a gratitude letter, you are actually enhancing what's called positive recall bias. So, everyone's born with both negative and positive recall bias. And the negative recall bias serves a purpose. It's the thing that initiates our fight or flight mechanism. It gets you out of the way when the car is speeding down the sidewalk or when you're going out in public and you are debating whether or not to wear a mask. A little bit of personal, you know?

Katie (06:35):

Yeah.

Nancy (06:35):

We get that in there...

Katie (06:36):

Wear a damn mask. We're #wearadamnmask

Nancy Davis Kho (06:39):

But, but the problem is when you're stuck in negative recall bias and certainly, in 2020, that's an easy place to get stuck. There's so much negativity around us. What positive recall bias does is tamp down that negative recall bias and it replaces it with an ability to look for the things that are still good around you. Which believe it or not, there are those things still in 2020. So, every time you have a deliberate expression of gratitude, you're strengthening the neural pathways that will tend you towards positive recall bias. So, completely unknowingly, every time I sat down to write a letter, I was getting a little bit more efficient at finding things to be grateful for. 

So, I started with the people to whom I am really just so genuinely grateful for. People I love. People I'm close with. And by the time I'd gotten to that end of the first easy list of people. My positive recall bias was stronger. And I could say, “Well, if I'm talking about people who have helped and inspired me, I've got to include the doctor who delivered my two kids. Because what would my life look like if she hadn't been so good at her job?” I had normal, you know, fairly straightforward births, but you still want somebody who knows her job at the other end of your legs when that's happening. So, you know, I wanted to acknowledge...

Katie (08:00):

Yes, you do.

Nancy (08:02):

And I wanted to acknowledge that she had played that role for me. So, I wrote a letter to my OB and I was thinking about my hairdresser because my hair...

Katie (08:13):

Oh my gosh. Yes, yes yes.

Nancy (08:15):

And now I understand that. And now after eight months of not being able to see her, I did finally get in two weeks ago. I live in the Bay Area. So, everything's been shut down since March. But you know, the people who make you feel good about yourself, maybe they get a thank-you letter. So, it started to get really fun because first of all, I was able to broaden my view of who has helped and shaped and inspired me. 

And then I also got to the point where I realized that each time I sat down and wrote one of these letters, I experienced a host of psychological and physiological benefits. And I'm talking about, you know, just feeling my breath settle. Feeling a sense of calm, come over me. And is all completely quantified in science. You know, people who have made a deliberate expression of gratitude have lower blood pressure, they sleep better. You actually have improved asthma control. And you can experience this sensation, they call it elevation, where your chest cavity just sort of fills with this sense of warmth. And I got that every time I wrote one of these letters. My practice was to do these on Friday afternoons. I would do it at the end of my workday and kind of make this the way that I coasted into the weekend. And I would just feel this sense of like, "Aaah. Okay, no matter what went on this week, I'm okay." Because I have this friend Lisa in my life, my high school best friend, and I've just made a list. Or, you know, I've just documented all the different ways that she's made my life better. I'm okay. And all those good feelings came in writing the letter, not in the recipient's response. 

We can talk about how great that was too and why I think it's important to actually send most of your letters. But when I realized that I was getting those benefits by writing them, I thought, "Okay, so I could write them, but not send them." And that means that we can think about who has helped shaped and inspired us through negative examples or who are those people who have done it for us, that we're not in touch with. The exes, the terrible bosses, the former friends...

Katie (10:16):

So, are those the letters that you didn't send? Because I know you make a reference to that. Not every letter that you wrote got mailed. So, tell us a little bit about that?

Nancy (10:26):

Right. So, I wrote, for instance... I talk about this in the book. My first job after college was in Germany. I spoke German and I moved over there and lived for a couple of years and worked. And I had a really terrific boyfriend. Things didn't work out, but during the time I was there, he would always answer my questions about why in Germany do you go to the post office to pay your bills? That does not make sense to me. And he'd be like, “Sit down, American girl. Let me explain, let me explain things to you.” And he just was really, I mean, I knew nobody in that country when I moved there and he was just my coach. He was my rock while I was there because I didn't know anything about being and living in Germany. And so, we kind of stay in touch via Christmas cards, but it's not...I don't want to send a letter to him. It's not respectful to my husband or his wife, but I did want to acknowledge that during the time we were together, I really benefited a lot from knowing him. And so, that was one of my favorite letters to write. I didn't mail it. He knows that there's a letter. I actually did reach out to let him know that happened. 

And the funny thing was, you know when this book was going to print, I thought I better let the few people know, who are going to, if they read this book, they can tell him that, I said...I wrote a letter to him and didn't send it, and this guy was like, "Oh, that's awesome. I'm going to be in the US for work starting tomorrow, I'll call you?” And I'm like, "No! That was not why I called to let you know this," but he never did.

So yeah, and I think it's a really healthy way to look back at some of the people and experiences in your life that may have felt negative at the time, or didn't sort of get finalized the way you would hope they would, and reframe them and get some perspective. And look at what was positive out of what you might have considered a negative scenario. And so, if you don't have to write the letters, you know, you can be really open-minded about who has helped shaped and inspired you. And then once I had that batch of letters done, I think there, it was like the lightbulb kept going off.

I thought, "Oh. Well, I've been inspired and shaped by the cities I've lived in." I wrote a letter to the city of Munich where I lived, and I wrote a letter to Oakland, California, where I live now. And I've been inspired by my number one hobby, which is going to see live music. You can tell with a podcast called Midlife Mixtape, that I'm kind of into music. And so, I wrote a letter to the live music industry, and there is no address to which I can send that. And also, I could not send my letter to Jane Austen because she's dead, but I really love her books. And I reread them often. So it, it just got to be fun. I mean every time I was sitting down to write a letter, I was really looking forward to writing down what I had been thinking about all week. You know, all the little specifics and stories and all the ways that I could think about how I had been changed as a person because I knew this other person, or I engaged in this hobby, or I lived in this place. And even just doing that thinking, it's already enhancing your positive-recall bias and what this, what the scientists say is the neurons that fire together, wire together. 

So, you can kind of think of gratitude like a muscle, and it just gets stronger and stronger even as you think through these categories. So, that's why I organized the book the way I did. I know not everybody's a writer. I know everyone may not sit down to write letters, but even if you just read the chapter about... here are the kinds of people in a school setting who might have inspired you. Maybe it was a coach, maybe it was a teacher. I'm hoping the reader sits back and thinks, "Oh yeah, Coach Smith, you know, he was great." Or, you know, "Mrs. Johnson, she was really awesome." And just in that way, they're already doing the heavy-lifting of that positive-recall bias enhancement.

It's a testament really, to paying attention as well and being observant of your own life. Because when you start to look for something, you tend to find it. So, if you're looking for opportunities to be grateful, if you're looking to recover and surface people in your life, you can be grateful to your barista, who greets you every day with a smile. So, you really can see that.

Katie (14:41):

You start one of your chapters with a quote from Eckhart Tolle that says acknowledging the good you have in your life is the foundation for abundance, right? When you start to look and see things that improve and benefit your life, it's easier to keep running with that. So, how would you recommend for one of our listeners, you know, besides buying the book to get started? What are the questions they need to be asking to start to trigger these memories and make them more observant about where they're having these sort of significant experiences in their own life?

Nancy (15:14):

I broke it down in the book into three steps. So "see," "say," and “savor.” And "see" is the first part. And that's really doing exactly what you're talking about. Look around you and see who the people are making your life better. And absolutely, it can be the barista; the barista who knows your order and greets you every morning and compliments your shoes or whatever it is that they bring into your life. You know, I always think of the clerk, we have a little corner grocery here in my neighborhood in Oakland, and he's delightful. And he too likes live music. And every time I go in there, we're discussing, "What did you download recently? Have you heard this?" And it's just nice, who else is going to talk to me about music while I'm down there buying salad greens?

So it's about the specifics. This is one of the things I really try to emphasize. It's fine when you, if you want to tell somebody, "You're so nice to me." But what does that mean? What does that look like for that person? And so, some of the writing prompts I include in the book is, "How are you different because your path crossed their path? What have they taught you? What is the time that they inspired you?” And then, if you had to phone a friend and one problem, "What's the problem you would call this person for? What would be the thing that you would rely on their help for?" Because I think that starts to narrow it down into the specifics. So, just the end, just think about it.

So, one of the points I try to make in the book, you know, for me, 50 letters, once a week, was the way to go, but you get to do whatever you want. There are no thank-you note police. So, I included an example of a woman who wrote a hundred thank-you letters in a hundred days, which absolutely makes me break out in a cold sweat. I could not have done that.

Katie (16:57):

It's a heavy lift.

Nancy (16:58):

Right? And then I included Kathy Valentine. I don't always say who this person was, because I'm not sure on every show they knew her. But Kathy Valentine was the bassist for the Go-Go's.

Katie (17:10):

Of course. Head over heels.

Nancy (17:10):

I know this audience knows who Kathy Valentine is... And by the way, I'm just going to make a plug here. She wrote a really good memoir this year called, All I Ever Wanted. If you have not if you're a fan of the Go-Go's make sure to check out Kathy's book. But for Kathy's 50th birthday party, she wrote a letter to the 50 guests she'd invited. So, that was the favor on everybody's plate when they came. And that took her a series of — I’m not sure how long it took her to write those letters, actually — but the point is that you can do this at whatever pace you want. 

And actually, there's some science that says that writing a gratitude letter will give you a measurably higher happiness level for a full month after writing it. So, you really don't have to rush through it. And I don't know about you. I don't need more things on my to-do list during the pandemic. So, I just tried to take away any pressure that a reader might feel to think, "Oh. I have to do it in a certain way." But for me, just the time you spend thinking about those specifics and seeing those specific traits or characteristics of the person you're going to write to really is it's kind of meditation in and of itself. So, that’s step one. 

Step two is "say" and that's just about writing it down. And I know that some people are going to read the book or think about this and not want to write the letters. And that's totally fine. I think there's so much value in a print letter though. I really, especially now, I did not mean to write a book that would pop against the background of a pandemic, but I certainly wish 2020 looked different, but the idea of sending a physical letter to somebody that they can open, and is full of those specific reasons why they have made a difference, why they're awesome, why they're valued, how valuable is that in 2020?

Katie (19:01):

It's so special. We need to be reminded of the people that are making a difference in our lives. And I think that there's been so much talk of the essential workers, the healthcare workers, and just like more attention paid to the fact that we are grateful that people who stock our grocery stores. That are bringing us toilet paper. There is no shortage of ways to feel appreciative and to express gratitude. If you were writing a pandemic thank-you letter, who would be on it? Who has made a difference for you during this time?

Nancy (19:32):

Oh, such a good question. I think honestly, the people who have made a difference to me during this time got letters from me in the first batch. So, I'm from New York. My whole family is back on the East Coast. So, in Oakland, it's my girlfriends. It's my posse of local friends who show up. And, you know, we yell across the lawn to each other for half an hour and catch up. And, somebody in the early days, people were dropping toilet paper off for each other. And you know, scrambling through the madness together. All of us have college-aged kids who are in various states of disarray as their school years are upended. And just this community of mom friends that I have, who are keeping me sane right now. They would absolutely be at the top of the list, but I already wrote to them, I'm not writing them a second letter. Not yet.

Katie (20:25):

Oh my gosh. I so agree with you about girlfriends. I have separate text threads going on with my friends from my town. And all the girlfriends that I grew up with. I joke that they're the people that remember my first set of eyebrows. And we have been on this thread talking about it. They were the ones that during April when I was like rage...like I had a huge fight with my husband about baking powder. I mean, it was like World War Baking Powder. And I was...

Nancy (20:48):

Very on-brand for 2020. Just to have the weirdest fight about...

Katie (20:53):

The weirdest fight. It was a screaming fight about baking powder. The kids retreated to the corners. I got into bed at like 5:30 at night with wine and rage-texted my girlfriends. I would not have made it through this moment. And every time I hear baking powder, it sends like a shiver down my spine.

Nancy (21:10):

Those are fighting words.

Katie (21:13):

Exactly.

Nancy (21:14):

You know, it's funny, because I just remembered, as you were saying that. I don't know if you guys have all experienced this, but as this pandemic has gone on, I've heard from friends who have just...I have a friend who lives in Europe and she and I were very close in college and she's still just a delight in my life. I just don't talk to her enough. And she and I now do FaceTime calls. We've been doing a bunch of Zoom calls. So, talk about silver linings and the pandemic. I feel like I've got a few friends like that where all of a sudden we're back in more regular conversation and thanks to the miracle of video chat. That's what we do. And I've written to a couple of those friends who... I finished my 50 letters and I was like, okay, that's it, I'm done with this project, putting it away. That's what I set out to do. And I certainly was not planning to write a book about it. 

About six months after that, I was at somebody else's 50th birthday party. And one of the guests said, “Oh hey, I heard you did this thing when you turned 50. Who'd you write to? What did you write? How did you decide?" And I was like, "I dunno, I think it's pretty straightforward." I answered all her questions for half an hour. But the next time, you know, it happened a second time. And by the time a third person asked me, I was like, "Well, maybe I can just write this down into a book." And then people would have a way to do this without the learning curve. So, in writing the book, I was like, "Wait, why did I stop at 50?" I've just identified and verified all the things that I knew were beneficial that I experienced in writing fifty. Why on earth did I stop? So, I started a second batch after I turned in the manuscript to my publisher. I started a second batch of letters. So, I don't do them as regularly, but that's who I'm writing to right now is all these college friends who are suddenly Skyping me from Belgium or wherever.

Katie (22:59):

Awesome. I completely agree. It's been a wonderful way of sort of reconnecting with people. It is the pandemic, you know, the silver lining that I have actively prioritized reconnecting with the people that make a difference in my life. And I have found that I have since the pandemic really went into full swing six months ago, I have felt more connected to even new people that I've been meeting sort of virtually. New clients or prospective clients that I get on the phone with. I feel there are just people who are more willing to be open. They want to check in on you, they want to see how you're doing. I feel that we're all human and we're struggling through this time together. 

I like what you said before about reframing. And how you can even reframe negative experiences in a way that helped you learn, that helped you grow. That you grow. And I had a very tough boss. One of my first jobs out of college on Capitol Hill. He used to yell and shout frequently. I would leave in tears. And I think about him often and how I don't want to show up as that person. And I have never thought about it the way that you shared that you can be shaped by people in ways that offered negative experiences as well.

Nancy (24:13):

It can be very satisfying to write a letter to that kind of person. That, you know, there's the sense of you. You tried to make it bad for me and I rose above it and this is how I turned it. This is how I spun it into gold.

Katie (24:24):

Maybe every listener should be writing a letter to the pandemic. You know to COVID.

Nancy (24:30):

That's a really good idea.

Katie (24:30):

And saying, here's how I am. Because it also gives you that sort of power. I mean, one of the reasons why people feel stress often or anxiety is because of powerlessness. You feel that events are beyond your control and things are happening to you. But if you can, so much of your book is about intention. You know, setting the intention to express gratitude, setting the intention to be observant about the things you should be grateful for. And if we can bring some more intention to the way we are interacting with this moment in time, because I've had a lot of sleepless nights. I feel very anxious around this period of time. So, that's something I'm going to consider taking on for myself.

Nancy (25:12):

Well, and one of the things that I think is particularly interesting about doing this at midlife, is the way that especially for women who are empty nesters, or are going to be empty nesters. A lot of times it's hard to know what comes next. And believe me, I wish I had known this earlier. So, I do try to get this message out to the 30-year-olds. But I think for those of us who are a certain age, there's real value in cataloging who you are, who you know, what you've learned because it can help you figure out what's coming next. 

Even if it weren't a pandemic right now, it can feel a little disconcerting when the kids leave. When you are past the mid-century mark and trying to figure out what your legacy is going to be. One of the things that I think can come out of this, are you remind yourself, "Oh yeah, I know this. I've got wisdom. And I have the ability and resilience to take a negative experience and turn it into a positive." And it's about empowering you and kind of giving yourself that boost and that recognition. 

In fact, I'll give away the end of the book. The last letter I recommend you write is to yourself. Because by the time you've gone through all of these people, places, and past times in your life, you better recognize that you've done a really good job of curating people to be around you. You've done a good job of creating a team of support for yourself and nobody else. This is one of the things I think is so cool about this. No one else has that same group of letters. No one else besides you will be writing to the exact same people, places, or past times. And how cool is that? I mean, it's a mosaic of you. And so, I do think that this can be used as a way to reclaim your power, recognize who you are. And that's a great basis for figuring out what the next step is going to be. If you're an empty nester, if you're not a parent too, you know if you are just trying to figure out what your legacy is going to be. Because I think that's something we all think about in our fifties.

Katie (27:21):

We absolutely do. So, this was a 50th birthday project. How old are you Nancy?

Nancy (27:27):

Uh, 26.

Katie (27:27):

But you look 25!

Nancy (27:33):

That's the airbrushing. I'm 54. So, I took my own advice. That's how I based that step. I printed out my letters at the end. So, that would have been April 2017 when I printed out all these letters, had them bound at a local copy shop, and I look at those letters still all the time. I keep it at the top of my nightstand. And if I'm trying to go to sleep and I'm feeling stressed, I've absorbed the news of the day because it's 2020, it's never good. I'll just flip through and read a couple of the letters and remind myself, "Oh right. This person did these things for me." And I'm okay. I've faced hard things before, I will again, but somebody will be there for me. And you know, it's a very good way to go to bed.

Katie (28:20):

It's such a beautiful touchstone. You know that to have that physical product next to you and this reminder that you have, you know, a life that's so rich with people.

Nancy (28:29):

Right. And I just have to say that as the third step in the "see," "say" and "savor." The savor is, as much as I say, throughout the book, "Do what you want." Step three: no you have to do what I say. You have to keep a copy of every letter you write. And that's what, that's what the product is for me. That's what this book is. Just to be clear, I did not handwrite my letters. I think it's great if you can, no one would have been able to make out anything that I'd written. So, I typed mine. I did handwrite my signature. So, there's that.

Katie (28:56):

I have the handwriting of a serial killer, there's no way anyone could read it.

Nancy (29:00):

I don't think any of us do long handwriting anymore, but keeping a copy for yourself is really, really important. And that's, that's what I'm talking about. This bound book is the thing that you can create for yourself.

Katie (29:13):

I love that. You also say that this doesn't have to just be about 50th. So, it's a special way to acknowledge that sort of milestone birthday, but in your book, you make the suggestion, you know, if you've been 10 months sober, maybe send 10 letters to the people who helped you on that journey. Whatever your personal celebration is or whatever you want to acknowledge. There are lots of different ways of doing it. And your book gives a bit of a blueprint, but you can modify it and make it your own.

Nancy (29:40):

Well, believe me, when the book came out and you look on the back and you get your ISBN number and you see how it's been categorized. And I looked at mine and I thought, “Self-help, that's crazy.” Who am I going to help? I cracked up. I was like, "Who am I to give anybody help?" So, I just really tried to make sure this book is invitational and inclusive for the reader to put their spin on it. Because honestly, I am the least qualified person to write a self-help book, but all I'm trying to do is make it easy for you to do what I did in your own way. So yeah, nobody needs another thing on their to-do list during the pandemic, but we all need a way to feel a little bit better every day.

Katie (30:24):

It's really a blueprint. Since January, actually, I started...it's not quite the same thing, but I committed to before I get out of bed, before I let my feet touch the floor, I say three things that I'm grateful for. And it's really helped frame…it got me through the pandemic, just sort of reminding myself each day that there are reasons to get out of bed. My healthy kids, the rainstorm, you know, the roof has finally stopped leaking. We had like a leaky roof around the skylights.

Nancy (30:55):

That's fun.

Katie (30:55):

Small stuff, Oh, that's fun. Like at 3:00 AM, like the ping, ping, ping of water on the desk, and now that it's not happening anymore, I am grateful. But if I didn't remind myself, you forget. We're very busy, our brain, you talk about the brain science. Our brain is trained, I think, to really retain the negative.

Nancy (31:16):

Right.

Katie (31:16):

We remember the slight, the insult, the time we kind of like garbled our words so vividly, and we forget sometimes the things that are going well. So, to have that physical touchstone is so important.

Nancy (31:31):

And it really is simple science. I mean, I do exactly the same thing when I'm going to bed at night. And it doesn't have to...I live in California. So, oftentimes now the thing I'm grateful for is I could see the blue sky because we don't take that for granted right now. We're in a smoke day today. We can't go outside. So, it does not have to be big, but just doing that is strengthening those neural pathways that will take you off the exit to positive recall bias instead of negative recall bias.

Katie (31:58):

This is the book that everyone needs in 2020. Between COVID, you know, wildfires, hurricanes, our politics, this is the book that people need to sort of reset their gratitude. So, I am going to link it in the show notes. I would encourage anyone to pick it up, even if you simply do that first step of listing in your own mind the people you're grateful for as you shared, can make an enormous difference. 

I want to take a minute and switch gears and talk about Midlife Mixtape. Before we run out of time, this is such a fabulous show for anyone who loves podcasts. It’s midlife meets music, meets Gen X. I love how you call it a show for "the years between being hip and breaking a hip". Tell us how you got started on this, because it's really, it's two platforms, right? It's a digital media property, and it's also a podcast. Tell us more.

Nancy (32:48):

Yes. Back in, in the stone age of blogging 2011, it was a blog Midlife Mixtape. And yeah, for the years between being hip and breaking one. I figured if people don't laugh at that line, then there's nothing for them that I create. Nothing I write or produce would ever be funny to them. So, I do occasionally still write on the blog, but then in 2017, I had an essay published on a site called TueNight which many of your listeners may know also…

Katie (33:16):

Yeah. I know it.

Nancy (33:18):

It's a Gen X storytelling platform. About the fact that I thought the Gen X-ers would be really good at midlife because if happiness is the difference between expectation and reality, we have very low expectations. We were raised to have low expectations. So, I thought, well, it's not going to be so "midlife stinks," whatever stuff and everything else. And this essay really struck a nerve with readers, and people said, "I want to hear more stories like this." So, I started the show just to invite people on, to talk about what they like about being at midlife because I was not experiencing it as a complete disaster. 

Of course, there are hard times, and losing my dad was the worst of them for me so far. But there are also things that are really freeing about being at midlife. That's what your whole show is about. There are things that are really good about it. So, I have people on from all walks to talk about what they like about it, what they think they're more efficient at what they, you know, what they're better at now that they couldn't have done in their twenties and thirties. And I've had everybody from, I do have performers. So, Kathy Valentine has been on the show, Frank Oral from Poi Pond Pondering, Teddy Thompson. But I talked to everybody and I've been so honored to have people like Outdoor Afro founder Rue Mapp. Fader Maui, who's an affordable housing activist because I just think Gen X is interesting and capable of so much and doing such interesting things. 

It's every other week. And every interview starts with what was your first concert and what were the circumstances? Because I believe that's an important fact to know about people. That to me is critical. And then the last question is what would you go back and tell your younger self? And it's so reassuring, I think, to hear what people say. And it's always along the lines of, you know, "Don't stress, get started, try, don't worry about perfectionism. Don't worry about what other people think and everything's gonna be okay." And we, we did an episode recently where I compiled all that advice to younger selves we've had, we've actually had listeners send advice to younger selves too. We sometimes do listener-contributed essays. And one of the questions that someone questions were, “What do you think that future you would come back and tell the Pandemic You?” And I just love that question because it's worth pondering. Like, what is the thing that someone in that you in the future would come back and it's probably along the lines of keep going. It's going to be okay. You know...

Katie (35:56):

If you're going through hell, keep going.

Nancy (35:57):

Right. I feel like I would tell me right now, you need less crap. You have a house full of things you don't need. And it's ridiculous because, at the end of the day, all you wanted was toilet paper and healthy kids, you know? And it really likes, I didn't wear shoes. You know, I was in a pair of slippers for six months. It's like, you don't need all the crap that the modern American consumer market is trying to sell you. It's all sort of foisted on you.

Katie (36:27):

But you know what? I listened to your show and I love it. And even though I'm interviewing you, I was starting to feel anxiety last night. Like, what if Nancy asks me my first concert? Because literally the first concert that I went to, I could not remember the musical act. All I remembered about this is I was 16-years-old and they were giving out menthol cigarettes. And my friends and I were like, "Oh my God, they're giving out free cigarettes." It's you know, and we were like smoking, like something that tasted like toothpaste at this pier in New York. And like, that is my most vivid memory. And so I texted my girlfriends and I said, "What was the concert? Was it Adam Ant? Was it Big Country?” And we wound up… it was The Alarm. Anyhow. I felt like I needed to share this with you. But this is how old I am, that I literally went to a concert when they were passing teenagers out menthol cigarettes for free, as advertising.

Nancy (37:19):

This is why I'm telling you this greatest icebreaker. Because people have hilarious. I mean, that's ridiculous.

Katie (37:26):

By the way, I no longer smoke. And I definitely, you know, definitely don't smoke menthol cigarettes.

Nancy (37:33):

If I were to smoke, not that loyal to them.

Katie (37:37):

Exactly.

Nancy (37:37):

Oh, that's awesome. I bet that was a good show. Even though you didn't remember it, see this, I mean, you know, it's funny. Because a lot of times guests will say, well, here was my first show, but that one was the one my parents dragged me to. The one I want to talk about is the one I bought the ticket myself because people think they're going to be branded if their first show was, you know, Helen Reddy or something. Or...I guess she was top of mind because I just...

Katie (38:02):

RIP Helen Reddy. I would say, I guess maybe the U2 Unforgettable Fire tour, I remember that more clearly than...no cigarettes at all. So, what would be on your pandemic, before we start to wrap up, What’s your pandemic playlist? I know that you're an aficionado. What's been getting you through these dark days?

Nancy (38:21):

Oh, wow. Well, so I have a 22-year-old and a 19-year-old who is home unexpectedly. I have UCLA North going on in a guest bedroom, as my sophomore daughter starts her second year. And my college graduate who got a job in her field.

Katie (38:39):

Yay!

Nancy (38:39):

Thank you, thank you. Girl mechanical engineers for the win. I have been listening to a lot of their music because they're home. And I don't even know what I'm listening to most of the time. I just tell them to play it for me. But what I recently downloaded and I love... I love the Old 97s...Rhett Miller and the Old 97s are great. They're very high-energy. They're an alt-country band. They had a new album coming out this summer and I was back east. I was lucky enough to be able to go back east for three weeks and visit with my mom, who we moved out of the memory care unit in New York when the first COVID case hit. She moved in with my older sister out in the Finger Lakes region. And I spent three weeks there trying to give my sister a bit of a break. And my mom loves country music and she's hanging in it, 86 still has dementia, but has not forgotten her love of country music. So, we just drove around the beautiful Finger Lakes, listening to the Old 97s' new album. And that was delightful. So, I've been playing that a lot.

Katie (39:44):

I love that. I will check that out and link that in the show notes.

Nancy (39:47):

I wish could remember the name of it. I'm blanking on that, but it's early on the west coast for anyone.

Katie (39:51):

I know. One more cup of coffee and you'd have it. So, this is the time we want nostalgia. I find myself putting on music that early reggae stuff, Toots and the Maytals, Pomp and Pride, things that just make me feel good. Because you know, it's like comfort food. We want comfort music. So, I'm like dragging out the greatest hits from back when life felt very carefree, before kids...

Nancy (40:20):

I have been playing a lot of Split Ends. That's was my number one. Prior to Crowded House, it was Split Ends and I've been pulling out my old vinyl and plating Split Ends. So, I hear ya.

Katie (40:31):

Nice. Well, Nancy, you've shared so many wonderful tips. I encourage every reader to pick up this book. Think about taking this project on for yourself. It is what you need to feel gratitude sort of ground yourself during a time that is, is truly, truly challenging. Before we wrap, is there another product or resource, or tip you want our listeners to know about?

Nancy (40:55):

I know you guys are all going to expect me to recommend some kind of fancy pen or stationary or something like that. But I'm going to be honest with you. The thing that I want to recommend to you is kaftans. Because I discovered the kaftan in June. I found a company called Pax Philomena, and they make these beautiful cotton kaftans. And I'm living my best Joanne-Worley-life. If you used to watch Hollywood Squares, that lady and the kaftan and that's me.

Katie (41:23):

Three's Company. I'm picturing a caftan on Mrs. Roper.

Nancy (41:26):

Oh yeah. That's exactly the kaftan. Picture that, because that's what it is. And I live in California. We're blessed with nice weather when it's not fire season. And that's what I do. I wear kaftans now. You talk about not wearing shoes. I don't even need clothes anymore. I just need to find a fleece kaftan for the winter and I'm going to be all set.

Katie (41:44):

Oh my God. Kaftans are…take that Zoom top. We're moving on to kaftans. I love it. All right. We're definitely sharing that with our listeners. So, how can they keep following you and learn more about Midlife Mixtape and The Thank-You Project?

Nancy (41:56):

The best place to go is my website www.daviskho.com. So, that's D-A-V-I-S-K-H-O dot com. And from there you can find information about the book and the podcast and the blog. And the podcast is on all podcast platforms. So, you can find it anywhere you listen to shows like A Certain Age.

Katie (42:13):

Thank you so much, Nancy. I love that. Plug a fellow midlife podcaster.

Nancy (42:18):

There are some great shows out there. We are a small but mighty podcasting community of the over-50 lady podcasters.

Katie (42:25):

Absolutely. I also love Everything is Fine, although I'm not sure if they're over 50, they've got a great show as well.

Nancy(42:31):

Kim France has been on my show. That's a really well-done show too. I love that one.

Katie (42:36):

Yeah. I love it. When I listen to it, I get jealous. I'm like, "A co-host. That would be so fun!"

Nancy (42:42):

No, you're doing you're great. This is great. And I know this is going to find its audience and be a huge success because there are not that many stories being shared about Gen X women. And I'm sure you've read Ada Calhoun's book, Why We Can't Sleep: Women's New Midlife Crisis, there's a reason why we need to keep sharing these stories with one another. Our generation has a much different take on midlife than the one before us. And it's important to share these stories and connect with one another. So, I'm so glad you're doing that.

Katie (43:11):

Thank you so much, Nancy. I could not agree more that we needed to stick together. So, thank you for joining me today. It was a total blast to be with you.

Nancy (43:18):

Thank you.

Katie (43:19):

This wraps A Certain Age, a show for women over 50, who are aging without apology. Thanks for listening. Please help us grow by heading to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, to subscribe, rate, and leave a review. And visit us at www.acertainagepod.com for show notes and bonus content. Special thanks to Michael Mancini Productions, who composed and produced our theme music. See you next time. And until then: age boldly, beauties.

Season One
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How to Be a Financial Grownup with Personal Finance Pro Bobbi Rebell