Love in the Time of COVID with Dr. Helen Fisher, Chief Science Adviser to Match.com
Show Snapshot:
Do we age out of love? Has the pandemic derailed dating and mating? Not according to Dr. Helen Fisher, chief science adviser to Match.com. An anthropologist, human behavior researcher, and expert on love and the biology of why we mate, stay, and stray, Dr. Fisher joins me to drop truth bombs on love in the time of COVID. Bonus, she shares snippets of her own love story and marriage at age 75.
In This Episode We Cover:
1. Surprise! Pandemic dating actually works.
2. Hey Cupid! Is it possible to fall in love online?
3. The DNA of long-term love and attraction.
4. How to keep the sizzle in your relationship.
5. How your brain systems wire you to mate, stay or stray. (And how to pick a partner wired for commitment).
6. Is there an age where people are more likely to be adulterous?
7. A surprising stat on women over 60+ and sexual choosiness.
8. Helen’s love-story and marriage at 75.
Quotable:
Sex is very good for you. It's not only good for the muscles, and skin, and bladder, and genital tissues, but it's also good for the brain. It's good for memory. It drives up the dopamine system and sustains feelings of romantic love. With orgasm, a flood of oxytocin gives you feelings of deep attachment.
We put people who were in their fifties and sixties into the brain scanner to see if the basic brain system for romantic love became active. And indeed it did. You can remain in love.
Word of Mouth. Helen Recommends:
My most recent book is "Anatomy of Love: Second Edition." And that really goes through everything. If you really want to know about why you fell for him or her, or how to make sure you sustain a good marriage, I would suggest my other book, "Why Him? Why Her?" A third book that I wrote called, "Why We Love" really explains romantic love.
More Resources:
Helen’s books:
Anatomy of Love: A Natural History of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray
Helen on the Today Show:
Adviser to Match.com finds love and marriage amid the pandemic
Helen in the New York Times:
When a Love Expert Falls in Love
Follow Helen:
Transcript:
Katie Fogarty (00:10):
Welcome to "A Certain Age" a show for women on life after 50, who are unafraid to age out loud. I'm your host Katie Fogarty.
Katie Fogarty (00:16):
Love has very famously been called a many splendored thing. Which is poetic yes, but still a little mysterious. What is love? Why do we feel it? How do we find it? Can we maintain it? Do we age out of it? I'm joined today by someone with answers.
Katie Fogarty (00:35):
Dr. Helen Fisher is an anthropologist, human behavior researcher, author, and expert on love, lust, attraction, attachment, and the biology of why we mate, stay, and stray. I cannot wait to dive in. Welcome, Helen.
Helen Fisher (00:51):
Thank you, thank you, Katie.
Katie Fogarty (00:52):
Helen, I'm so excited. All February long on A Certain Age, we're exploring love from a variety of angles. And you wear so many expert hats on this topic. You're the author of several books, including "The Anatomy of Love", which looks at the biochemical foundations of love. You do scholarly research, Ted Talks, and you're the Chief Scientific Advisor for internet dating site Match.com. So, we have a lot of ground to cover, but I want to begin by asking about love in the time of COVID. I know you've done some studies on how the pandemic is affecting dating and intimacy. Can you tell us more about that?
Helen Fisher (01:25):
Absolutely. I mean, I hate to say this, but this pandemic has actually been very helpful to romantic love. I mean, it's a horrible experience. Nobody's ever had the experience of the world shutting down [laughs] and we are not built for 24/7. I mean, I'm an anthropologist. For millions of years we did not stay shut inside day-in and day-out for months.
New Speaker (01:46):
What has happened is we are a new stage in the dating process has emerged called video chatting. You know, prior to this pandemic, people met on the Internet--and by the way, that's all these sites are, as introducing sites, they're not dating sites. All they do is introduce you. You know, when you meet in person, you smile the way you always did, you laugh the way we did, you parade and attract the other person the way you always did. So, all they are is introducing sites.
New Speaker (02:14):
Anyway, before the pandemic people met on the internet and then they went out and met in person. And now there's this new intermediate stage called video chatting. I did a national study with Match last July in the middle of the pandemic. We do not poll the Match members; this is a national representative sample of singles based on the U.S. Census, and we have data on over 5,000 Americans every year. Actually we've got data on 50,000 Americans now because we've been doing it for 10 years.
New Speaker (02:44):
But the bottom line is we're seeing the emergence of this new dating phase called video chatting. And what singles are telling us is that they are having much longer conversations, of course, they've got more time. They're having much more meaningful conversations with much more honesty, much more transparency, and much more self-disclosure. And self-disclosure, academics have been able to prove, really pushes you towards intimacy. So, we're seeing more intimacy from meeting on the Internet. There's less focus on looks-- both your looks and a potential partner's looks. And much more focused now on whether this person is fully employed and whether they are financially stable. So, it really is intentional dating. People are much more looking for a long-term committed partnership. Bad boys, bad girls are out. [Katie laughs] Long-term commitment is in.
Katie Fogarty (03:46):
That's fascinating.
Helen Fisher (03:46):
What is really interesting to me also, is that when we polled people on this, those who really were very actively doing the video dating, 50% of them had fallen in love with somebody. I'm not surprised.
Katie Fogarty (04:01):
Wait, over Zoom? How does that work?
Helen Fisher (04:04):
Easily. [Both laugh] You know, the bottom line is-- I and my colleagues have put over a hundred people into a brain scanner and studied the brain circuitry of romantic love. And as it turns out, this is a basic brain system, like the anger system and the fear system. You know, you can get mad instantly if you get insulted or, you can get terrified instantly, if see a New York cab coming towards you, and you can fall in love instantly. And what's really important, you know, they do call it love at first sight. And what video chatting is enabling us to do is see the person; the way they smile, the way they hold their body, the way they really dress, their background, where they live. All kinds of things that can trigger the brain circuitry for romance.
Katie Fogarty (04:53):
That is so fascinating. And it does make sense in some ways, because if you're trying to connect with somebody in a crowded bar or a restaurant, there's so many other distractions. Probably this video chatting brings that it strips away all the distractions. And I love the way you talked about intentional love and intentional interactions over Zoom. Are people moving it off of zoom though? What's going on?
Helen Fisher (05:21):
We don't have data on people moving it off of Zoom at this point. But just looking around, I think everybody's getting so frustrated. And you know, more and more people are taking the vaccine. People will go out and date again in person. I mean, we are mammals. We are built to try to see people in person. But I honestly think we're going to continue to be much more careful. And what I really think is that, you know, with video chatting, sex is off the table. You don't have to decide whether you're going to kiss, or hold hands, or how you're going to handle that. And money is off the table with video chatting. You don't have to decide whether you're going to go to a very fancy bar or whether you're going to spend very little just in a coffee house.
Helen Fisher (06:04):
So, I do think, and I we've got data on it at Match, that singles are using video chatting as a vetting process to decide whether they want to go out on that first date. So, we're going to see much more meaningful first dates. We're going to see fewer first dates because people are going to get rid of what they don't want before they go out. By the time they do go out, they've already had the meaningful conversations, they've already decided, "Well, I wouldn't mind kissing her or him. I wouldn't mind spending a little bit more money and more time on it. I wouldn't mind getting dressed up and spending my time and effort to meet this person." So, I think we're going to see fewer dates as people proceed to go out in person, but I think they're going to be much more meaningful and frankly, much more relaxed. We're going to be kissing fewer frogs.
Katie Fogarty (06:56):
[laughs] I love that. We're all for kissing fewer frogs.
Katie Fogarty (06:58):
This is such, this is such an optimistic look at dating because, you know, I love the way you talk about intentionality, that you talk about people having more meaningful connections. And it's wonderful to hear that even when we're essentially housebound or sheltering in place, that there's still the opportunity for intimacy, there's still the opportunity for meaningful connections.
Helen Fisher (07:25):
Even more, I mean, what else do you have to do? In the past, we were getting up early, we were getting ourselves all dressed and showered and commuting and getting into the office, a lot of people anyway. Then after work, one was going to see family and friends and whatever, and we have more time. In fact, Match is calling this a dating Renaissance. All of these dating sites are booming at the moment. They are booming because people have the time, they need to have these interactions. I mean,Cupid is killing COVID. [both laugh] Cupid is alive and well.
Katie Fogarty (08:07):
That is wonderful. So, talk to me a little bit about brain scans. You mentioned that you had with colleagues had done brain scans. It's interesting, one of the women who was on my show, a few shows ago, Dr. Anita Sadaty, who was talking about sexual health, libido, and arousal. She was saying that, arguably the brain is the biggest driver of sexual interest in people. Can you tell us a little bit about that, you know, in terms of the biology of love and why we're attracted? And if we're in a long-term partnership, can that be maintained?
Helen Fisher (08:42):
Okay. Well, first of all, just about the brain. I've been able to establish something that's actually pretty obvious, but anyway. That we've evolved three basic brain systems meeting and reproduction. One is the sex drive, driven largely by testosterone. The second is feelings of intense, romantic love; what we've discovered in the brain driven largely by the dopamine system. The third brain system is attachment, that sense of common security. You can feel with a long-term partner. They all play a role. I mean, sex drive gets you out there looking for a whole range of partners. You can have sex with somebody you're not in love with. Romantic love enables you to focus your mating energy on just one person at a time. And attachment enables you to stick with this person, for a while, but sometimes for your life; and that's driven by the oxytocin system in the brain.
Helen Fisher (09:34):
So, these are three different brain systems. They operate together. Iit doesn't always start with sex; some people fall madly in love with somebody they've never kissed and then get into bed with them. Some people have a deep attachment to somebody long-term and then things happen, times change, and then they fall madly in love with this person, then they have sex, et cetera. Bottom line is, these are three brain systems. And the one that I wanted to figure out was romantic love.
Helen Fisher (10:02):
Other people have really studied the sex drive and the attachment system. And by the way, I mean, people pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love. One of the most powerful brain systems the human creature has ever evolved.
Helen Fisher (10:18):
So, I figured, "Well, gotta be something going on in the brain". As a matter of fact, when I wrote my first academic paper on this, some of the peer reviewers said, "Oh, you can't study romantic love. It's part of the supernatural." And I thought to myself, "Wait a minute here-- you know, anger is not part of the supernatural fears, not part of the supernatural. Why would this be part of the supernatural?"
Helen Fisher (10:40):
Anyway, so I began to put people into the brain scanner who were madly in love. And what I did first was I interviewed them. I mean, these scanners are expensive and time-consuming, so I had to make sure they were really in love. I gave them a lot of questionnaires and asked them a lot about their love lives. And, you know, people who are madly in love will happily talk your ear off about it. [Katie laughs] [11:01 Inaudible] That was no problem.
Helen Fisher (11:07):
Anyway, we get them in the machine, we get them out of the machine and we analyze the data. And as it turns out, when you're madly in love or rejected in love, or in love long-term (those are the three different studies that we did) there's activity in a tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral tegmental area, or the VTA. And what that area does is it makes dopamine, a natural stimulant, and sends that stimulant to many brain regions. So, this is what gives you the elation, the giddiness, the euphoria, the focus, the motivation of intense, romantic love.
Helen Fisher (11:44):
What astonished me... Well, first of all, I was thrilled we could find it. I thought we would, because it's a pretty dramatic feeling, but nevertheless, nobody had ever done it, so that was important. But I had thought that romantic love was an emotion, or a whole series of emotions from, you know, from A to Z. But actually, it's a drive it's. The factory, the VTA, lies way at the base of the brain near the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you will live today, romantic love drives you to seek out a partner and send your DNA into tomorrow. So, I call this a survival mechanism and indeed it is: a survival mechanism that enables us, and has for millions of years, to drive us to fall in love, form a partnership and send our DNA into tomorrow.
Helen Fisher (12:41):
So, I'm not surprised, I mean, you know, love counts. What you're trying to seek is life's greatest prize, which is a mating partner. It's a very powerful drive, and what people will do for love. I mean, look at all the artifacts of it. I mean, not only myths, legends, songs, and dances, but I mean, how about ballets, operas, symphonies, theater, movies, sitcoms, and cards, letters, therapists, and holidays [Katie laughs] for goodness' sake. I mena, we're deluged by this basic human drive, the drive to love.
Katie Fogarty (13:15):
It's embedded in every fabric of your life, you're so right. But I'm fascinated by what you said about how it's sort of a DNA imperative. So, can romantic love exist once you've realized that imperative? You know, once you've made it maybe and had children, does romantic love fade away, or is it something that-- you know, because I'm 51 and my listeners are all, you know, sort of north of 40 something does romantic love fade or can it endure?
Helen Fisher (13:44):
Katie, first of all, thanks for asking that question. Nobody's ever asked it. I just think it's really important. I remember I was writing my book, "Why We Love", and then my most recent book, I mean, I've written a lot of them, "Anatomy of Love". And I remember sitting at my desk and thinking: why would this brain system continue to occur after your reproductive years are over? What is the point? Now, nobody's ever addressed that before or since. And I just sat there and I began to think about it. And I said, you know, romantic love is very healthy for you. When you're madly in love, you tend to lose weight, you tend to really focus on somebody, it gives you optimism, it gives you energy, it gives you focus, it gives you motivation, it makes you happy. It drives you to have sex with the person, and sex is very good for the body. It leads to attachment, which is as is security.
Helen Fisher (14:40):
And I began to think, okay, well for millions of years, you're traveling around in these little hunting and gathering groups. They did go through menopause at around age 50, 51. We know that now. And what would be the point of having this brain system survive after reproductive years are over? And I began to think, it gives you a lot of health benefits. I mean, as I say:, the optimism, the energy, the focus, the motivation drives you to have sex with the person, that's really good for you. It gives you a secure partner, but it also makes you a better functioning member of society. I mean, if you're just glum and moping about, and don't see any point in dancing and singing, et cetera, I mean, it's not good for the social group. But if you are a happily ensconced with somebody and you're going to be a more productive member of society. Relationships are very important.
Helen Fisher (15:31):
Happy relationships are very good for you. Some data shows that you can live five to seven years longer if you are in a happy partnership. Isolation kills. Unhappiness, unhappy people tend to get, you know, more diseases faster and die sooner. So, the bottom line is: I do think that romantic love evolved and remained active after reproductive years are over, simply so that you could be, not only a happier person and not only making somebody else happier, but simply being a much more productive group member. And so that's what I ended up writing down that day at my desk when I was trying to fill in that section of my book, "Why We Love."
Katie Fogarty (16:12):
That makes so much sense to me. You know, I've been married for... I'm embarrassed, I have to do some quick mental math. I've been married, you know, north of 20-something years. And my kids are older and beginning to fly the nest. And I'm still in love with my husband.
Helen Fisher (16:30):
Isn't that great?
Katie Fogarty (16:30):
Yeah, it is great. But I'm curious, for people who are looking to nurture love in their lives, you know, is there a difference between men and women? Is it something that- does biology differ around this topic?
Helen Fisher (16:48):
The answer is simple. It's no. I mean, men express their love differently, but I want to go back. Don't let me forget to go back to talk to about longterm love and why you're still in love with your husband, because we did put a of 15 people like you into the brain scanner. Well, I'll go there first.
Katie Fogarty (17:04):
Yeah, tell us.
Helen Fisher (17:04):
You know, older people kept on coming into the lab and saying, I'm still in love with her, or I'm still in love with him. Not just loving, but in love with your partner. And Americans don't believe that can happen. And so we decided we would put people who were in their fifties and sixties, like you into the brain scanner and see if this basic brain system for romantic love became active. And indeed it did. You can remain in love long-term. Gotta pick the right person, which is of course something else I've studied, you have to pick the right person, but you can remain in love long-term. What we've found is, activity in the same brain region, the ventral tegmental area, became active in the scanner, when they looked at a photograph of their sweetheart, their long-term partner. All these people were in love an average of 21 years, like you. Almost all of them had grown children, like you. And they were still madly in love with their partner. And in fact, then I did a study with Match, we did not study match members. Once again, we studied a group of, I suppose, 1,500 people who were in long-term marriages. I asked a lot of questions, but one of them was: would you remarry the person that you're currently married to? And 81% said, "Yes."
Katie Fogarty (18:33):
I love that. That's fantastic.
Helen Fisher (18:36):
Yeah. And yeah, you gotta get the right person.
Katie Fogarty (18:40):
So, how do you do that? Because you said, you know, there are ways of thinking about that. So, for people who are listening right now, who maybe never yet connected with somebody, or perhaps have gone through a divorce and are hoping to find, a second act love. What would your advice be?
Helen Fisher (18:55):
Get on the internet. I mean, seriously, just get on the internet. It's work. I mean, I would not fool anybody. It is work. That's the primary way these days that people meet. You know, I've done a national study with Match for the last 10 years, it's called Singles In America, and every year we poll 5,000 Americans. As I mentioned, we don't poll the Match members, it's a national representative sample of singles, based on the US census. So, it's real science. As it turns out every single year, more people met their last first date on the internet than they did through a friend. For example, 2017 is one that I happen to remember. 40% of singles met their last first date on the internet. Only 25% met through a friend, and less than 10% met, oh, at church, at school, at work. In this past year, only 2% met their last first date in a bar.
Helen Fisher (19:49):
So, it's internet dating. And the reason that that is important to people who are dating now, is I did a study once again, a national study, of people who date on the internet as opposed to off the internet. Not Match members, just those who dated on any site on the internet, as opposed to off the internet. And as it turns out, people who date on the internet are more likely to be fully employed, to have higher education, and to be looking for a long-term commitment. And actually, a new study just came out, University of Chicago, showing that people who date on the internet are less likely to divorce. So it is the place to go. There's a pile of different sites. The site that a Match has, it's a subsidiary, called Our Time. It is for people over the age of 50. I don't work with that site, but I'd love to do it. A lot of older people are on Match too.
Helen Fisher (20:48):
So, I just met a guy actually last night who met-- I don't know quite how old he was, but he was certainly middle-aged, who met through video chatting on Match actually, three months ago and they just moved in. So, it's all possible, but you got to work the system. I mean, I'm, as you know, I'm 75. I mean, I got married six months ago, [both laugh] and I'm madly in love with him too so...
Katie Fogarty (21:16):
I love that.
New Speaker (21:16):
and will continue to be I'm positive of that, because he's such a great guy. But anyway, the internet, I didn't meet him on the internet. Match would have loved it if I'd met somebody on the internet, but that didn't happen.
Katie Fogarty (21:30):
But I do remember reading about this actually in the New York Times. Because the New York times did a big wedding coverage when you did get married because you are widely considered and recognized to be one of the nation's foremost experts on love. And you found love later in life.
Helen Fisher (21:44):
Isn't that amazing? I did not solicit that. I have friends there and somebody discovered it. And the today show did it- I was touched, I was so touched. But anyway, yes. They celebrate the fact that a 75 year old can, can actually be madly in love and happily love and actually walking down the aisle. So, I really actually, it was very interesting Katie because I studied love for 50 years. I mean, I've studied in 80 cultures around the world, I've studied the brain circuitry, I've studied the evolution, I've studied the brain circuitry of personality and why you're drawn to one person rather than others, I've studied all of that.
Helen Fisher (22:23):
But I never really, emotionally figured out why you would marry. I had had three very long, happy, live-in partnerships with men, but I had never had any interest in marrying them. I thought to myself, "Well, what difference does it make?" I mean, you know, I was devoted to the people. I had every intention of staying with them until it didn't work out. And what difference would marriage make? And guess what, last summer on July 21st, when I married him, I figured it out.
Helen Fisher (23:00):
It is different. Marrying some- as I said to him, "What is the difference?" I married a guy called John Tierney, he wrote in the New York times for 22 years, but that's not the why the New York times chose this story. But anyway, I said to him, "What is the difference? I'm trying to put out, what is the difference between being married and just a long-term lover?" And he looked at me, said, "It's richer and deeper." And he is right.
Katie Fogarty (23:27):
Oh, I love that.
Helen Fisher (23:28):
[laughs] Do you agree?
Katie Fogarty (23:31):
I totally agree.
Helen Fisher (23:33):
Because you've been married a long time.
Katie Fogarty (23:33):
Yeah. I agree. There's something so beautiful about being willing to be committed to somebody and kind of, linking your faith together and choosing each other. I think it's really choosing. And to be chosen, feels so special.
Helen Fisher (23:50):
I still... I'm obsessed with this marriage. I look at every man's hands to see if he's married, I look at everybody's hands and I have a new sense of admiration for them. And I finally get it. I finally feel that deep cosmic connection and willingness to say, you know, all the others are not in the ballpark, I'm done with the others. This is the one for me. It has a sweetness, it has a beauty to it.
Helen Fisher (24:19):
And by the way, you know, as an anthropologist, 97% of mammals do not pair up to rear their young, only 3% do. I mean, if somebody came down from Mars or even ask a chimpanzee: what's unusual about people? First thing they would probably say is, "You guys decide to pair up, we don't bother with any of that." You know, it's a species that is a pair-bonding species. Now, we also divorce, we also remarry, a lot of people have what I call serial pair-bonding, or serial partnerships. And I wrote a book on why we do that; why divorce is prevalent around the world and remarriage, of course. But the bottom line is that it's a beautiful thing. Marriage is a lovely, a beautiful thing.
Katie Fogarty (25:05):
It is a beautiful thing. So, why do some people stray? You know, some of it maybe seems obvious. There's lack of sexual interest in their partner, or they've been the bonds have been frayed by life and it's choppy waters. But why do people stray? Maybe I don't fully understand. And two, if people want to make sure that's not going to happen, what would you advise?
Helen Fisher (25:30):
Well, if you don't want it to happen, pick the right person. I mean, it's as square as that. And then continue to keep this relationship interesting. There's three ways to you know- one wants to keep all three of these three basic brain systems cooking. Have sex regularly, that drives up the testosterone system and makes you want to have more sex. And people say, "Well, I don't have time." Well, you got time to go out on Saturday night. You've got time to go shopping. You got time to play with your children. You have time for sex, you can schedule it if necessary. But sex is very good for you. It's not only good for the muscles, skin, the bladder, and the genital tissues, but it's also good for the brain. It's good for memory and it drives up the dopamine system, it can sustain feelings of romantic love. With orgasm, actually, a flood of oxytocin gives you feelings of deep attachment. So sex is good for you. I'd keep at that.
Helen Fisher (26:31):
To keep up the romance, do novel things together. Novelty drives up the dopamine system and gives you romantic- this is why vacations are so romantic, because it's so novel, driving up the dopamine system. And if you want to sustain the attachment; stay, stick together. You know, hold hands, kiss, get rid of the arm chairs and sit together on the couch to watch television. Any kind of cuddling or physical touch drives up the oxytocin system in the brain. So, you really want to keep all of these basic brain systems cooking: sex drive, romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment.
Helen Fisher (27:10):
And what's interesting, I haven't talked to yet about adultery, but I'll get there. What's interesting to me about long-term happiness in a partnership. We put these long-term, happily in love couples, individuals who were in a long-term happy marriage, into the brain scanner. And we found the basic brain regions associated with long-term happiness. Now, psychologists say all kinds of things about how to make a long-term happy partnership. I mean, don't be critical, don't be defensive, don't stonewall and pretend it isn't going on. But anyway, all good, all good.
Helen Fisher (27:57):
But this is what the brain says, this is what happens in a long-term, happy partnership. Three brain regions become active: a brain region linked with empathy, a brain region linked with controlling your own stress and your own emotions, and a brain region linked with overlooking the negative. What I call positive illusions. Overlook, what bothers you and focus on what's great about this relationship. So, we can remain in long-term, happy partnerships. But anyway, you asked about adultery.
Katie Fogarty (28:31):
Positive illusions. I absolutely love that. But before we move on to adultery, because I definitely do want to get there. Tell me a little bit, is positive illusions, sort of like reframing things? Like looking at something and sort of altering the way that you react to it?
Helen Fisher (28:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Now, for example, with my new husband. He's a little higher on the serotonin system than I am. He follows the rules. Rule following is in a brain system, the serotonin system in the brain. I call these people builders. He's not a builder, but he's very high on the dopamine system, like I am. He's novelty seeking and curious and creative. But the bottom line is, he follows the rules more than I do. [Katie laughs].
Helen Fisher (29:11):
And we were walking along. I don't know, it was a few months ago, before COVID. And we were walking down into this little village, well, right in the middle of the Bronx, little area. And I said, "Let's cut over this, you know, this area here." And he said, "Oh, no, no, there's a sign here. You can't walk on the grass." [Katie laughs] [29:34 Inaudible] There hadn't been any grass there for 25 years. It was rock. I mean, it wasn't even weeds. It was dirt. He didn't want to walk on the grass. And I thought to myself, okay, he doesn't- little silly now. But that same rule following probably means he's going to be faithful to me. He's going to follow those rules.
Katie Fogarty (30:02):
You know it's interesting that your brain is really organizing these sort of decisions for you, in ways that you don't even realize. Like you're lucky enough to have found a wonderful husband who is creative, engaging and, you know, up for new experiences, but also is wired to be committed. That's fascinating.
Helen Fisher (30:19):
Yeah. I mean, some people are wired to be committed and they're in a perfectly horrible relationship and they end up being attachment junkies and staying way too long. So, you know, all of these brain systems can be for good or evil. But the bottom line is, yeah, we've evolved four very broad styles of thinking and behaving. With the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen systems in the brain. I've studied, oh, 100,000 thousand people actually. As it turns out, you know, we all express some of the traits in all four of these systems, but people were very expressive of the traits in the dopamine system in the brain. I call them explorers, they're drawn to each other. They tend to be novelty-seeking, risk-taking, curious, creative, spontaneous, and energetic people. And they're naturally drawn to each other. And he and I are very similar in that way. I mean, he's a journalist, he's gone all over the world, he writes books, I mean, he's an exciting man.
Helen Fisher (31:21):
People were very high on the serotonin system are drawn to each other either. I call these people builders. Mike Pence, Mitt Romney, these people are traditional, they're conventional, they follow the rules, they respect authority, they're concrete thinkers, they're cautious people, they probably like rules and schedules, et cetera, and they tend to be religious. These are all traits that are in the serotonin system in the brain. And these people are also drawn to people like themselves. Other builders, other people who ar very expressive of the traits in the serotonin system.
Helen Fisher (31:57):
People who are very high on the testosterone system go for their opposite. Those who are high on the estrogen system. So, I think that actually, Hillary and bill Clinton are a good example. Hillary is the more high testosterone. I mean, I think these people, tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough minded, skeptical, good at things like math, engineering, computers, music. Music is very special, very structural. And these people go for their opposite.
Helen Fisher (32:28):
The high estrogen, negotiators, I call them. People who oh, they see the big picture, they're holistic thinkers, contextual thinkers, they're imaginative, can deal well with ambiguity, very good at reading posture, gesture, tone of voice, very trusting, very what we call pro-social people. So, we're all expressive of all four of these styles of thinking and behaving, but we express some more than others.
Helen Fisher (32:56):
Indeed my husband and I- that word husband, I'm still getting used to it. [Katie laughs] It's a beautiful word. Anyway. Everybody takes these things for granted, I think, but I certainly don't. I mean, you're probably so used to it. But anyway, the bottom line is, he and I are both very high on the dopamine system. As I said, we're both novelty-seeking, curious and hopefully creative. We both write books, et cetera.
Katie Fogarty (33:22):
Let's dive into adultery, I know you mentioned that earlier. So, we've talked about the different, sort of, styles of brain organization that might make us attracted to a certain type of person. But what makes us stray? Is it when there's a disconnect between your brain chemistry and who you should be with? Or does something else tend to send things off the rails?
Helen Fisher (33:43):
There's all kinds of things that send off the rails. I've looked at adultery in 42 cultures around the world. Everywhere in the world, people, some people, do cheat. Even in fact, throughout the animal community. I mean, most other animals don't form partnerships so cheating is not in the game. But a lot of birds form partnerships, because they've got to. Somebody's gonna sit on that nest and that individual will starve to death unless they get somebody to help feed them. So, a lot of birds form partnerships, pair bonds, they are monogamous, and they cheat too. [Katie laughs] So, why is it that people cheat? Well, you know, if you ask them, there's all kinds of psychological reasons. People will say: I wanted to get caught and break up, I wanted to get caught and dissolve the partnership, I wanted to supplement the partnership, I wanted to solve a sex problem, I wanted to have a walk on the wild side, I got lonely when my partner was out of town, I travel a lot, I needed something in another place, et cetera. All kinds of psychological explanations.
Helen Fisher (34:53):
But the bottom line is, and I'm a Darwinist, I'm an evolutionist. Why would we do this over and over when you can die? I mean, you can lose your family, you can lose your friends, you can lose your money, you can lose your status, and you can get diseases and die. [Katie laughs] Why would we be adulterous? And so, this is the Darwinian explanation, the base explanation. So, going back a million years, if a man had one wife or one solid partnership, and he went over the hill and met another woman and ended up having two babies with her, and he had two babies at home, he would double the amount of DNA he sent into tomorrow. So, men who are adulterous had more children, sent more of their DNA into tomorrow, sending along their propensity for adultery.
Helen Fisher (35:33):
But why would women be adulterous? I mean, women can have a new baby every single time she has sex with somebody. She might have one more child and add to you know, have a child with different DNA, which is sort of adaptive. But also, she could have an insurance policy. I mean, if her husband was eaten by a lion, she may have somebody to step in and help her with the children that she's got. You know, when she's traveling, which they did all the time, women would go to other hunting together in groups and travel with their friends or relatives for a period of time. If they had lovers in other places, they would have more protection, they would have more meat, they would have more security. So, through millions of years of forming a partnership with one person and having babies, and also going out sneaking around and either having babies or support from other individuals, passing along this human propensity, to cheat.
Katie Fogarty (36:44):
So, are people more likely to cheat when they're younger and in their reproductive years, than when they're older and in their, you know, settling down years?
Helen Fisher (36:53):
Last time that I studied this, among the young people under the age of 40, women had just begun to cheat just as much as men. And that's probably because we are leaving the agrarian beliefs behind. That a woman's place is in the home, that a man is the head of the household. Women are now in the job market, which by the way, is the world's largest and most important current trend, it's not technology. Technology is just enabling us to do what we've always done, but in a more efficient manner. What is really changing is women piling into the job market in cultures around the world, the rise of the double income family, et cetera. So, among people under the age of 40, the last time I looked at this data, could have changed a little, women were just as adulterous as men. Why? Because they can afford to be. I mean, people now are married for companionship. Women no longer really have to marry for money. In fact, when I last asked ,only 14% of women in America would marry for financial stability
Katie Fogarty (37:55):
Helen, you shared a startling statistic with me on the pre-call about, who are the choosier sex partners, right? Can you share that with us right now? Because this is sort of what you're leading towards, I think.
Helen Fisher (38:09):
Oh yeah, women are the picky sex. [Katie laughs] You know, men are...it's unbelievable. I've been trying to tell this to the women's magazines for 40 years. Men fall in love faster than women do, because they're so a visual, they fall in love more often. Men, when they meet somebody that they're in love with, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner. Men want to move in sooner, and men have more intimate conversations with their wives than women do with their husbands, because women have their intimate conversations with their girlfriends. [Katie laughs] So, you know, men are the more fragile sex. And in fact, men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over.
Katie Fogarty (38:46):
And there's this notion of like, older women being cougars and maybe being a little bit desperate, but actually I think statistically, you shared with me that, you know, women over the age of 60 tend to be the choosiest in their sexual partners, which is interesting.
Helen Fisher (39:00):
Definitely. You know, 76% of women today, will not marry a man who is 10 or more years younger. Won't do it. 51% of women are perfectly happy, making more money than their partner. What you're referring to is this study that I did. It's so interesting. I created two questions and the questions were, would you make a long-term commitment to somebody who had everything you were looking for, but you were not in love with them? And the second question is, would you make a long-term commitment, commitment to somebody who had everything you were looking for, but you did not find them sexually attractive?. The least likely to compromise on sex and love were women over 60. It's the young that have to compromise. And the ones that compromise the most were, young men, men in their twenties. Reason being, you know, my little cousin is a perfect example. He said, "You know, when I married my wife, she wasn't the best I had ever had in bed. And I really wasn't as crazily in love with her as I have been with other women. But she's very helpful for my career. She's going to be wonderful with our children and this is the right thing to do." So it's the young that are the ones that are more inclined to compromise.
Helen Fisher (40:27):
Now, I must say that, I've written this article called "Slow Love". The young, these days are pretty picky, both men and women. I must say that they are. You know, they used to marry in their early twenties, wow they're marrying in their late twenties. There's a long period of pre-commitment, the young are serious. I'm very impressed with the young, they have really serious about who they choose. And so are older people, I mean, I'm older. In fact, you know, there was a man who I probably could have married, and he lived in another part of the country. And he was a great guy, I was not in love with him and I did not find him sexually attractive. Am I going to move to, you know, Arizona? [Katie laughs] with a man who I'm not in love with and don't find sexually attractive? Forget about it.
Katie Fogarty (41:17):
No, of course not. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.
Helen Fisher (41:21):
Whereas I think the young would try it.
Katie Fogarty (41:21):
They might try it. They're like, "The weather's warm and you know, what's wrong with Arizona?" Oh my gosh, Helen, this has been so much fun. I have learned so much, so many fascinating statistics and I feel just optimistic about long-term commitment. I feel optimistic about love and dating in the time of COVID. You know, I think sometimes the media tells us a bad story about what it means to age and, you know, adultery and things falling apart, and the death of love. You have made me feel more optimistic about it all. Thank you so much.
Katie Fogarty (41:52):
Before we wrap and move on, I would just want to ask for people who are curious about this topic, who might want to know more about this, is there a resource, or tool, or a particular book that you would direct them to?
Helen Fisher (42:05):
Well, my most recent book is "Anatomy of Love: Second Edition." And that really goes through everything. If you really want to know about why you fell for him or her, or how to make sure you sustain a good marriage, I would suggest my other book, "Why Him? Why Her?" A third book that I wrote called, "Why We Love" really explains romantic love. Or, well, two websites, www.theanatomyoflove, where you can take my questionnaire, and my new website, which I hope is going to be up by the time this airs just Helenfisher.com.
Katie Fogarty (42:46):
I will link to all of your books and your two websites in the show notes so people can continue to follow you in your work. It has totally been a pleasure having you as a guest today. Thank you so much, Helen.
Helen Fisher (42:57):
Thank you, Katie.
Katie Fogarty (42:58):
This wraps "A Certain Age", a show for women over 50, who are aging without apology. And this also wraps our February shows and our month long theme of love. All February long, A Certain Age features guests with insights and tools for cultivating love and self-care. In episode five, Dr. Anita Sadaty coaches us on the three key factors to maintain vibrant sexual health. Episode six, Christine Mason talks intimate self-care and launching and scaling businesses. Author and New York Times science writer, Jacqueline Mroz, walks us through the intricacies of female friendships and show seven. And the fabulous Dr. Helen Fisher has demystified the science of love and given us so many nuggets of wisdom, as we look at romantic love in our own lives.
Katie Fogarty (43:46):
Join me next week. As we kick off March. We're diving into life speed, bumps, setbacks, and deep losses. We'll talk divorce, illness, death, and tools for navigating choppy waters. See you next time. And until then age boldly, beauties.